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	<title>Comments on: Seven (or Three) Types of Time-Travel Elasticity</title>
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	<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/</link>
	<description>the blog of scott westerfeld</description>
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		<title>By: Maggie</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-600</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-600</guid>
		<description>You also talked about this subject in your essay for Seven Seasons of Buffy, did you not? Very fascinating. Plus: Buffy is awesome. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You also talked about this subject in your essay for Seven Seasons of Buffy, did you not? Very fascinating. Plus: Buffy is awesome.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-599</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2005 20:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-599</guid>
		<description>Ben Rosenbaum and I discussed this a bit elsewhere, but I&#039;ll just add that the idea that time is unchangeable -- that any attempt you make to change the past actually creates the past you already knew -- is, in philosophical terms, essentially the same as the classical notion of fate, i.e. your destiny is predetermined.  The idea that time is completely changeable is essentially the same as the idea of free will, i.e. individual choices are meaningful.  

The various forms of elasticity constitute a middle ground, where you can have a little of both.  I think they&#039;re popular because nowadays we&#039;re attracted to both notions: we like the idea that some things are meant to be, but we also like the idea that our choices matter.  (In the past, people were more accepting of the idea of fate than they are now, I think.)

From a physics standpoint, I think you can argue for either immutable time or radically changeable time (or a multiverse), but I don&#039;t know of any basis for an elastic model.  Immutable time is a consequence of various physical theories, including special relativity.  But if you posit that you can change anything, the mathematics of chaotic systems implies that shifting even a single molecule will eventually result in global changes.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben Rosenbaum and I discussed this a bit elsewhere, but I&#8217;ll just add that the idea that time is unchangeable &#8212; that any attempt you make to change the past actually creates the past you already knew &#8212; is, in philosophical terms, essentially the same as the classical notion of fate, i.e. your destiny is predetermined.  The idea that time is completely changeable is essentially the same as the idea of free will, i.e. individual choices are meaningful.  </p>
<p>The various forms of elasticity constitute a middle ground, where you can have a little of both.  I think they&#8217;re popular because nowadays we&#8217;re attracted to both notions: we like the idea that some things are meant to be, but we also like the idea that our choices matter.  (In the past, people were more accepting of the idea of fate than they are now, I think.)</p>
<p>From a physics standpoint, I think you can argue for either immutable time or radically changeable time (or a multiverse), but I don&#8217;t know of any basis for an elastic model.  Immutable time is a consequence of various physical theories, including special relativity.  But if you posit that you can change anything, the mathematics of chaotic systems implies that shifting even a single molecule will eventually result in global changes.</p>
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		<title>By: Abigail</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-598</link>
		<dc:creator>Abigail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2005 05:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-598</guid>
		<description>Speaking of time travel movies (and the issue of the time traveller remembering different timelines), we have &quot;The Butterfly Affect&quot;, a surprisingly non-sucky movie in which Ashton Kutcher (I know.  I know) discovers that the blackouts he experienced as a child were actually his adult self inhabiting his body, and goes about making things better, worse, much worse, much much much worse, and so on.  Every time he returns to his own present, however, he gets migraines from having to accomodate yet another lifetime of memories.  There&#039;s even a hilarious scene in which his doctor looks at MRIs as if they were a disk-space usage diagram: &quot;It&#039;s almost as if... you were storing the memories of two lifetimes!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of time travel movies (and the issue of the time traveller remembering different timelines), we have &#8220;The Butterfly Affect&#8221;, a surprisingly non-sucky movie in which Ashton Kutcher (I know.  I know) discovers that the blackouts he experienced as a child were actually his adult self inhabiting his body, and goes about making things better, worse, much worse, much much much worse, and so on.  Every time he returns to his own present, however, he gets migraines from having to accomodate yet another lifetime of memories.  There&#8217;s even a hilarious scene in which his doctor looks at MRIs as if they were a disk-space usage diagram: &#8220;It&#8217;s almost as if&#8230; you were storing the memories of two lifetimes!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Emerald City: Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Reviews</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-596</link>
		<dc:creator>Emerald City: Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Reviews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-596</guid>
		<description>[...] 	 	  Rewriting the Past 	  Filed under: General, Critics &#8212; Cheryl @ 1:46 am  	 	    	Scott Westerfeld and Lou Anders have been talking about time travel and different ways of ch [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 	 	  Rewriting the Past 	  Filed under: General, Critics &#8212; Cheryl @ 1:46 am  	 	    	Scott Westerfeld and Lou Anders have been talking about time travel and different ways of ch [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lou Anders</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-595</link>
		<dc:creator>Lou Anders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Sep 2005 20:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-595</guid>
		<description>I believe it was Asimov, who in the END OF ETERNITY, submitted the &quot;wave&quot; theory of elastic time, that the effects of any change would be most noticable immediately after the point of interference/insertion, but would gradually diminish in intensity as you moved past the event. So, killing Hitler would radically alter the 20th century, marginally alter the 21st or 22nd century, and might leave the 23rd century or beyond virtually untouched and have no effect on the 30th century at all. Of course, larger alterations would carry further forwards, while smaller ones would fade out more rapidly. 

Oddly, this reminds me of a recent article I read on the resurgence of the &quot;Great Man&quot; theory of history. The idea that, at any given time, there are about 12 people who are creating the world had falled out of academic favor for some decades, replaced with the notion that economic, social, political etc forces were shaping events more than individuals, who were simply stepping in to fill roles dictated for them by larger forces. I.e., if you did assassinate Hitler, someone else would have stepped into the power vacuum in Germany and mobilized tensions there to similar effect. However, ironically, George W. has renewed interest in the &quot;Great Man&quot; theory. While the artile wasn&#039;t suggesting W was in any way &quot;great,&quot; it pointed out that in almost-single handedly forcing a war that a) wasn&#039;t necessary and b) wasn&#039;t popular with congress, the people, or the world at large, he has demonstrated how much (catastrophic) effect one individual really can have. 

The other thing this discussion brings to mind is the way that science filters through into pop culture and effects our fictions. The original Star Trek very much adhered to the notion of &quot;one timeline&quot;, which, when broken, was always repaired - the break and it&#039;s correction (as Spock points out in &quot;City on the Edge of Forever&quot;) always part of the design. This holds sway through the TNG episode, &quot;Yesterday&#039;s Enterprise,&quot; in which Guinan senses the wrongness of a universe in with the Federation and Klingon Empire are at war, and impresses Picard on the necessity of repairing the damage. (Picard raises the question, &quot;How do we know this timeline isn&#039;t any more right than any other?&quot; and Guinan stares him down.) 

But this notion of a single timeline begins to break down with the latter episode &quot;Parallels&quot;, which sees Worf permeating through a variety of alternative timelines until everything culminates in a clusterfuck of thousands of Enterprises from a myriad different universes. 

By Deep Space Nine, the notion of one time-line has radically broken down, as withness an episode whose title escapes me, in which Chief O&#039;Brien is constantly teleporting back and forth to a future in which the station is destroyed. Despite the fact that each trip exposes him to radiation poisoning, he makes one final attempt to avert the encroaching disaster, meets himself of just minutes later on, dies, and sends his minutes-into-the-future self back in his stead. Upon his return, he wonders if he really has the right to call Kieko his wife, given that &quot;her&quot; O&#039;Brien died in a timeline that was then prevented from occuring, and is reassured by his best friend that he&#039;s still the Chief, even if his memories are out of whack by a few minutes. Since &quot;most of him&quot; is the same, that&#039;s good enough. 

Finally, when we get to Voyager&#039;s first few seasons (where my knowledge of Trek ends, as my viewing of Trek did too), time has become elastic, fractal, alterable, permeable, and generally good for twisting into any shape the writers need. The two-part episode &quot;Future&#039;s End&quot; sees multiple versions of characters encountered with no attempt to match cause to effect. Here, a crashlanding in the past has resulted in a boom in 1990s computer technology (seemingly the boom we ourselves experienced - thus the alteration IS the correct time), but the 29th Century timecop that is sent to prevent it is re-encountered twice, once as a sane individual aware of the outcome of the episode&#039;s action, and once as a homeless man wandering deranged from the initial crash. Both versions co-exist in the same (final) timeline, and alterations and corrections made in the episode do not erase or negate the mad homeless version&#039;s existance.  I quite watching soon afterwards, but kept enough tabs on the show to know that they continued to play with multiple versions of their characters, and multiple co-existing and interacting timelines. 

I haven&#039;t quite put my finger on it yet, but I think that the move from an absolute time to fluid/fractal timelines somehow coincides with blurring questions of individuality and identity unconsciously coopted from the zeitgeist. It used to give me fits when Jeri Taylor would tell me &quot;absolutely the holographic doctor is a person&quot; and Brannon Braga would turn around and tell me &quot;absolutely he is not.&quot; They didn&#039;t know themselves, but unconsciously, a lot of that series was about ascribing &quot;personhood&quot; to inanimate, but sentient-seeming, objects, which, to me, was perfectly appropriate for and indicative of an age where a woman ran over a biker because her tamaguchi needed food. As tragic as that sounds, one day our robot masters will site it as a watershed in human/machine empathy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe it was Asimov, who in the END OF ETERNITY, submitted the &#8220;wave&#8221; theory of elastic time, that the effects of any change would be most noticable immediately after the point of interference/insertion, but would gradually diminish in intensity as you moved past the event. So, killing Hitler would radically alter the 20th century, marginally alter the 21st or 22nd century, and might leave the 23rd century or beyond virtually untouched and have no effect on the 30th century at all. Of course, larger alterations would carry further forwards, while smaller ones would fade out more rapidly. </p>
<p>Oddly, this reminds me of a recent article I read on the resurgence of the &#8220;Great Man&#8221; theory of history. The idea that, at any given time, there are about 12 people who are creating the world had falled out of academic favor for some decades, replaced with the notion that economic, social, political etc forces were shaping events more than individuals, who were simply stepping in to fill roles dictated for them by larger forces. I.e., if you did assassinate Hitler, someone else would have stepped into the power vacuum in Germany and mobilized tensions there to similar effect. However, ironically, George W. has renewed interest in the &#8220;Great Man&#8221; theory. While the artile wasn&#8217;t suggesting W was in any way &#8220;great,&#8221; it pointed out that in almost-single handedly forcing a war that a) wasn&#8217;t necessary and b) wasn&#8217;t popular with congress, the people, or the world at large, he has demonstrated how much (catastrophic) effect one individual really can have. </p>
<p>The other thing this discussion brings to mind is the way that science filters through into pop culture and effects our fictions. The original Star Trek very much adhered to the notion of &#8220;one timeline&#8221;, which, when broken, was always repaired &#8211; the break and it&#8217;s correction (as Spock points out in &#8220;City on the Edge of Forever&#8221;) always part of the design. This holds sway through the TNG episode, &#8220;Yesterday&#8217;s Enterprise,&#8221; in which Guinan senses the wrongness of a universe in with the Federation and Klingon Empire are at war, and impresses Picard on the necessity of repairing the damage. (Picard raises the question, &#8220;How do we know this timeline isn&#8217;t any more right than any other?&#8221; and Guinan stares him down.) </p>
<p>But this notion of a single timeline begins to break down with the latter episode &#8220;Parallels&#8221;, which sees Worf permeating through a variety of alternative timelines until everything culminates in a clusterfuck of thousands of Enterprises from a myriad different universes. </p>
<p>By Deep Space Nine, the notion of one time-line has radically broken down, as withness an episode whose title escapes me, in which Chief O&#8217;Brien is constantly teleporting back and forth to a future in which the station is destroyed. Despite the fact that each trip exposes him to radiation poisoning, he makes one final attempt to avert the encroaching disaster, meets himself of just minutes later on, dies, and sends his minutes-into-the-future self back in his stead. Upon his return, he wonders if he really has the right to call Kieko his wife, given that &#8220;her&#8221; O&#8217;Brien died in a timeline that was then prevented from occuring, and is reassured by his best friend that he&#8217;s still the Chief, even if his memories are out of whack by a few minutes. Since &#8220;most of him&#8221; is the same, that&#8217;s good enough. </p>
<p>Finally, when we get to Voyager&#8217;s first few seasons (where my knowledge of Trek ends, as my viewing of Trek did too), time has become elastic, fractal, alterable, permeable, and generally good for twisting into any shape the writers need. The two-part episode &#8220;Future&#8217;s End&#8221; sees multiple versions of characters encountered with no attempt to match cause to effect. Here, a crashlanding in the past has resulted in a boom in 1990s computer technology (seemingly the boom we ourselves experienced &#8211; thus the alteration IS the correct time), but the 29th Century timecop that is sent to prevent it is re-encountered twice, once as a sane individual aware of the outcome of the episode&#8217;s action, and once as a homeless man wandering deranged from the initial crash. Both versions co-exist in the same (final) timeline, and alterations and corrections made in the episode do not erase or negate the mad homeless version&#8217;s existance.  I quite watching soon afterwards, but kept enough tabs on the show to know that they continued to play with multiple versions of their characters, and multiple co-existing and interacting timelines. </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t quite put my finger on it yet, but I think that the move from an absolute time to fluid/fractal timelines somehow coincides with blurring questions of individuality and identity unconsciously coopted from the zeitgeist. It used to give me fits when Jeri Taylor would tell me &#8220;absolutely the holographic doctor is a person&#8221; and Brannon Braga would turn around and tell me &#8220;absolutely he is not.&#8221; They didn&#8217;t know themselves, but unconsciously, a lot of that series was about ascribing &#8220;personhood&#8221; to inanimate, but sentient-seeming, objects, which, to me, was perfectly appropriate for and indicative of an age where a woman ran over a biker because her tamaguchi needed food. As tragic as that sounds, one day our robot masters will site it as a watershed in human/machine empathy.</p>
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		<title>By: David Moles</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-593</link>
		<dc:creator>David Moles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-593</guid>
		<description>I think the hard SF answer would have to be that you remember your original timeline, period. Either that or &quot;you&quot; never existed (any more, that is, after... um... having trouble with my tenses here...), though there may now be some other you around who remembers the new timeline.

Though you might be able to get around that by waving your hands and saying &quot;quantum&quot; a lot.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the hard SF answer would have to be that you remember your original timeline, period. Either that or &#8220;you&#8221; never existed (any more, that is, after&#8230; um&#8230; having trouble with my tenses here&#8230;), though there may now be some other you around who remembers the new timeline.</p>
<p>Though you might be able to get around that by waving your hands and saying &#8220;quantum&#8221; a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Justine Larbalestier</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-592</link>
		<dc:creator>Justine Larbalestier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-592</guid>
		<description>Diana: I kind of like some of them romance timetravel novels. Cause, really, the frocks are the thing and only the romance genre is honest enough to admit it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diana: I kind of like some of them romance timetravel novels. Cause, really, the frocks are the thing and only the romance genre is honest enough to admit it.</p>
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		<title>By: Diana</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-591</link>
		<dc:creator>Diana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-591</guid>
		<description>Thanks, David! I see what you mean. I think I&#039;d have a greater understanding of those later ones if I&#039;d actually read any of the Company novels. How would the &quot;hard SF&quot; types feel about the time travel in &quot;Frequency&quot; wherein the future would just suddenly change and even the &quot;time traveler&quot; (quotes because only his voice traveled) would have a difficult time remembering the original timeline?

I think I can accept a variety of explanations as long as the logic works within the context of each story and they don&#039;t go changing rules on me halfway through. For instance, I was fine with The Terminator, but disturbed how the theory was perverted in T2, and despite the fact that I hated almost everything about the third one, I was pleased that they made a few steps towards going back to the original interpretation of how time worked. 

Looking forward to the other three!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, David! I see what you mean. I think I&#8217;d have a greater understanding of those later ones if I&#8217;d actually read any of the Company novels. How would the &#8220;hard SF&#8221; types feel about the time travel in &#8220;Frequency&#8221; wherein the future would just suddenly change and even the &#8220;time traveler&#8221; (quotes because only his voice traveled) would have a difficult time remembering the original timeline?</p>
<p>I think I can accept a variety of explanations as long as the logic works within the context of each story and they don&#8217;t go changing rules on me halfway through. For instance, I was fine with The Terminator, but disturbed how the theory was perverted in T2, and despite the fact that I hated almost everything about the third one, I was pleased that they made a few steps towards going back to the original interpretation of how time worked. </p>
<p>Looking forward to the other three!</p>
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		<title>By: David Moles</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-590</link>
		<dc:creator>David Moles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-590</guid>
		<description>No, Diana, the changing thing happens fairly often, too. (Though &lt;i&gt;Back to the Future&lt;/i&gt;&#8217;s way of dealing with the paradoxes by having the protagonist feel vaguely ill and start slowly fading away would probably be frowned upon by a lot of hard SF types.) I think what we&#8217;re talking about here is mostly variations on (1) and (2) &#8212; which could be treated as variants of &#8220;No, you can&#8217;t change anything,&#8221; with (3) and (4) as variants of &#8220;Yes, you can.&#8221;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, Diana, the changing thing happens fairly often, too. (Though <i>Back to the Future</i>&#8217;s way of dealing with the paradoxes by having the protagonist feel vaguely ill and start slowly fading away would probably be frowned upon by a lot of hard SF types.) I think what we&#8217;re talking about here is mostly variations on (1) and (2) &#8212; which could be treated as variants of &#8220;No, you can&#8217;t change anything,&#8221; with (3) and (4) as variants of &#8220;Yes, you can.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Diana</title>
		<link>http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/2005/09/seven-okay-four-types-of-time-travel-elasticity/comment-page-1/#comment-589</link>
		<dc:creator>Diana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scottwesterfeld.com/blog/?p=58#comment-589</guid>
		<description>Wow. fascinating. So, am I to take it (not being from the SF community) that the established acceptable time travel approach is one of time-elasticity, rather than actually time travel &quot;changing&quot; time a&#039;la &quot;Back to the Future&quot; and such? Is that approach frowned upon, or is it written off as a &quot;parallel worlds&quot; story?

In the romance genre, you&#039;re lucky if the time travel plotline is used for anything more than a device to get the heroine into poufy long skirts and on a horse. Lots of being hit on the head with a magic rock in modern Cleveland and waking up in 15th century Scotland and the like. I don&#039;t read TT romance for that reason. I have read Willis and even Stephen Baxter, though I don&#039;t know if it&#039;s possible to understand exactly what he&#039;s getting at without a PhD in String Theory. 

I&#039;d been trying to study the way time travel works in fiction (you should see my Netflix queue) and had THOUGHT I&#039;d boiled it down to: 1) this was the way it was supposed to be (a&#039;la THE TERMINATOR); 2) you can&#039;t change anything, even if you try; 3) parallel worlds; 4) actually changing the future from the past.

This is obviously much more complicated. Perhaps I need to start hanging with the SF folks more often.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. fascinating. So, am I to take it (not being from the SF community) that the established acceptable time travel approach is one of time-elasticity, rather than actually time travel &#8220;changing&#8221; time a&#8217;la &#8220;Back to the Future&#8221; and such? Is that approach frowned upon, or is it written off as a &#8220;parallel worlds&#8221; story?</p>
<p>In the romance genre, you&#8217;re lucky if the time travel plotline is used for anything more than a device to get the heroine into poufy long skirts and on a horse. Lots of being hit on the head with a magic rock in modern Cleveland and waking up in 15th century Scotland and the like. I don&#8217;t read TT romance for that reason. I have read Willis and even Stephen Baxter, though I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s possible to understand exactly what he&#8217;s getting at without a PhD in String Theory. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d been trying to study the way time travel works in fiction (you should see my Netflix queue) and had THOUGHT I&#8217;d boiled it down to: 1) this was the way it was supposed to be (a&#8217;la THE TERMINATOR); 2) you can&#8217;t change anything, even if you try; 3) parallel worlds; 4) actually changing the future from the past.</p>
<p>This is obviously much more complicated. Perhaps I need to start hanging with the SF folks more often.</p>
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