Scott Westerfeld Forum

Scott's Books => Leviathan / Behemoth / Goliath => Topic started by: Yone on December 02, 2012, 03:14:56 AM

Title: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Yone on December 02, 2012, 03:14:56 AM
I just read Bemonth and Iīm a little bit angry, because- how could it be otherwise?- the Germans are the evil. Well, if you a Darwinist, they are your enemis, but Austria also, and in the book no one say somthing about ,Bad Austrians` or so.
I know, Germany isīnt so liked, because of all this teribell things in the secound world war, but this is almost 65 years ago.
And in WWI there were not ,good and bad' like in WWII. I think, you can not say, the Germans were all evil, and as I said I`m annoyed about this depiction in Bemonth. But whoever must be the bad. ;) What do you think about this?

Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: gavinfuzzy on December 02, 2012, 03:25:48 AM
I guess the main character was Alek...

And the Germans were chasing him... That would lead to the Germans being the main antagonist of the whole story.

Of course, if it was told from the perspective of say a German boy, the Darwinist/ UK would be seen as the bad guys then.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 07:28:40 AM
Simple. Leviathan was written with little moral ambiguity. If it were, then we would have seen more focus on the darker side of Darwinism and wouldn't be made to believe that everyone just accepted monstrous fabs except a few "Monkey Luddites" (a term which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, seeing as Luddites feared machines would take their jobs and weren't so much afraid of the machines themselves).

I've ranted enough on this point, so I'll leave it there.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: sandy5 on December 02, 2012, 08:05:13 AM
The Allies could also be thought of as evil considering the Treaty of Versailles.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Bramblepool on December 02, 2012, 08:17:14 AM
Mostly because of the POV of the main characters id think.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 01:27:34 PM
POV, yeah. And because the majority of the world sees that era's Germans as the bad guys.
"History is written by the victors".

Simple. Leviathan was written with little moral ambiguity. If it were, then we would have seen more focus on the darker side of Darwinism and wouldn't be made to believe that everyone just accepted monstrous fabs except a few "Monkey Luddites" (a term which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, seeing as Luddites feared machines would take their jobs and weren't so much afraid of the machines themselves).

If we'd have been lucky we would have seen fabricated humans duking it out with cyborg Clankers and it would have been AWESOME...but nope, we see weak, simple Darwinist stuff instead of the glory that is genetic based combat. Oh well.
And the name, I think, means that (originally anyway) they were afraid that "monkeys" (fabricated apes probably) would take their jobs and then it got expanded to mean anyone who disliked fabrications. AKA religious people, AKA the first ones to be washed out of Darwin's Fist.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Bramblepool on December 02, 2012, 02:37:57 PM
All good points straif, but *facepalm*.  Sometimes I wonder how you manage to relate everything to DF.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 02:41:17 PM
I don't. Its just a very good example. For those who get it anyway.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Bramblepool on December 02, 2012, 02:43:40 PM
Okay, well maybe not for EVERYTHING, but a lot of stuff.  And, yeah, that's a pretty good example.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 02:45:28 PM
Heh.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Bramblepool on December 02, 2012, 02:47:58 PM
Straif, I just looked back at your first posts and in your first AND third post, you used the word 'yays'.  That seems really...unlike you.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 02:51:03 PM
I still use it sometimes. I just haven't had a reason to recently. Very...GLOOMY, my life.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Bramblepool on December 02, 2012, 02:52:37 PM
AWWW SAD.  POOR STRAIF NO LONGER SAYS YAYS.  AS MUCH.  but it still kinda wierds me out that you say it at all.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 02:56:47 PM
If we'd have been lucky we would have seen fabricated humans duking it out with cyborg Clankers and it would have been AWESOME...but nope, we see weak, simple Darwinist stuff instead of the glory that is genetic based combat.

Thankfully the Anti-Darwinist sentiment puts enough pressure -and general tolerance is only just enough- to prevent such atrocities from coming to be.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:04:25 PM
In Britian, aye, and look where THAT got them. Asses kicked by the Clankers at EVERY turn.
Which would be enough to tip the balance I think.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 03:08:03 PM
Actually with the war over, and films of the war no doubt, public approval of the beasts would drop drastically. I imagine "Monkey Luddites" would become more than the butt of jokes once the need for hulking, monstrosities fell away.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:11:46 PM
Over? Oh no my friend...its just getting STARTED. There's a full YEAR between Goliath and the treaty according to the Manual of Areonautics...enough time for German to rise up and lay waste like the awesomely mechanical nation it is.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
Yes, but not enough to create human fabs.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:17:17 PM
Must. Not. Make. Darwin's Fist. Refernce.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 03:20:28 PM
I really want to red DF so I can write a fanfic based on it where the people aren't too happy with what's going on.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:21:17 PM
They already aren't. In the words of Dr. Halsey; "Desperate times will make people accept ANYTHING. Its when the threat goes away that you have to prepare for."
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Clouse-La on December 02, 2012, 03:28:14 PM
In my opinion, it's becuase the winners of history write the books.  If Germany had won WW1, then the allies would be bad.  I don't believe Germany should be the bad guys, but what I said is true.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 03:31:34 PM
They already aren't. In the words of Dr. Halsey; "Desperate times will make people accept ANYTHING. Its when the threat goes away that you have to prepare for."

I've been holding off on that reference because I haven't played the game yet, but that's my point, more-or-less.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Clouse-La on December 02, 2012, 03:33:15 PM
They already aren't. In the words of Dr. Halsey; "Desperate times will make people accept ANYTHING. Its when the threat goes away that you have to prepare for."

*bows becuase you used a halo quote*
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:38:41 PM
Close...but not really. That's MY Dr. Halsey from DF, albeit she's based heavily on Halo Halsey since they have pretty much the same job.
But the qoute's similar to her thoughts, yes.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 03:41:08 PM
Well if your Halsey is facing court-martial, then I might not have to do much.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:44:23 PM
Court-martial? She faces execution. As do all of DF at one point.
And then the Bloshivek Russians invade and they get a second chance.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 03:46:29 PM
Does the Bolshevik revolution take place during the course of DF? Well, nevermind, spoilers. I'll read it and see if I think it's necessary for me to write a companion piece.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:47:22 PM
If you do, I'll give you any info you need.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 03:53:21 PM
Be prepared. I like to know quite a bit.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:53:40 PM
Good.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 03:53:49 PM
Hmm, In real life, Germany did technically start WWI, even if it was an Serbian school boy that killed the Archduke. But Germany wanted it, and they had all the plans to take over countries. The Von Schlieffen plan( I think I spelled that wrong...) the Luistania in America. Everyone blamed Germany because they were the offensive country. If they had won, and maybe would have if they didn't take out a third of the people in the Von Schliffen plan, then I think they would still be blamed, because they still started the fight (unofficially). But since they lost, they had to pay reparations, which angered them...and made them extremely poor, and they started WWII.

However, Scott probably just made the Germany in his books appear to be evil because that's what everyone thought of them.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 03:57:05 PM
And because this is a book for teens who want romance and a little action, not history nerds with hardons for technology and biological combat.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 04:02:37 PM
That too...I'm totally a history nerd...as you can see...But most of what he wrote is true.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 04:04:40 PM
Well, it was a misunderstanding with the Russians, I think. Both sides were building up troops and war material on the Eastern Front and Germany chose to attack rather than be attacked. Of course my history is a bit rusty, so I may be wrong. All I know is that this is what led to France joining, and the attack on France (which required marching through Belgium) is what prompted Britain to join. God, that was a mess of treaties they had going.

The reason Germany took the blame was simply because they were the strongest nation and had caused the most damage. The Allies were pissed so they pinned everything on them and kept them from the negotiations for the Treaty of Versailles so they could write the terms without protest.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 04:06:53 PM
History/war nut myself. Mostly war though.
And that works for me. All I know is, DF soldiers are going to have a BUNCH of mental trouble later cause of their indoctorination.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 04:12:28 PM
The Russians had a treaty with Serbia, and Austria fought Serbia, So Russia fought Austria. Germany had a treaty with Austria. Therefore they fought Russia, and France had a treaty with Russia. Then Germany went through Belgium to attack France, And England had a treaty with Belgium so they started fighting too. And then in 1917 Germany attacked the American ship, Luistania, because they had "English people" so America joined too.

Err are you talking about real life or Straif's story...?
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 04:15:24 PM
Real life I think.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 04:17:25 PM
Real life. Like I said, my history is a bit rusty. And The Lusitania was attacked because it was in waters where Germany was waging unrestricted submarine warfare as well as ferrying war material to Britain (a fact confirmed later by wreck divers).
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 04:21:35 PM
Fuses and stuff, right? Part of the reason it went down so fast. They went off.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 04:23:38 PM
That's right, but America was supposed to be protected because they weren't involved in the war. And the Germans weren't supposed to know about the weapons.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 04:26:41 PM
That's why it's called "urestricted" submarine warfare. They were indiscriminately sinking Allied vessels.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 04:29:17 PM
Yeah, but it was an American ship. So it wasn't an ally. America was sending weapons to both powers.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 04:33:23 PM
America was still isolationist at the time, so they weren't officially supporting anyone. The fact is that the Lusitania was in fact a British ship of the White-Star Line company (A sister-ship of the Titanic) in waters patrolled by German U-Boats. American outrage came from the American passengers on board who were killed.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 04:37:38 PM
They were leaning more toward Britian though, those who wanted to join the war. And that's where Darwin's Fist comes from in the story. A bunch of very wealthy people come together and say "we need to do something about the Germans" and a disgraced but extremely motivated and disturbingly gifted British boffin comes to them and says "I can do that, if you have the money."
And they have the money. So she does it.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 04:39:36 PM
Oh. well you just put me to the test. I suppose I was wrong about that then...I though it was American. But there was 116 Americans on it. Sorry for arguing about that...I learned about it two years ago.

They wanted to help the side that was going to win, so they stopped sending weapons to Germany, discretely.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 04:42:22 PM
I just remembered, honestly.

It was a combination of the Lusitania and the Zimmerman Telegram that sent american troops to war in the end.

That sounds familiar, Straif, but I can't quite place it.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 04:45:04 PM
Silly Germans thinking that Mexicans will fight with them...even if they had gotten the message, I don't think they would help them.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 04:46:55 PM
Its a pretty common story idea.
Interesting you should mention the Zimmerman Telegram cause that's the thing that sends DF down to Mexico on their first real mission, comdined with the reports from Malone and Rogers on the Leviathan. It...goes badly for Villa's group. Villa, his doctor, and the majority of the revolutionaries end up slaughtered and their bodies dumped into the canyon the Leviathan hid in, after the frontal assault wounds Cprl. Shaw.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 04:47:38 PM
Maybe, the West Coast and Southwest US are pretty valuable areas.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 04:49:27 PM
Yes, but we practically destroyed them in the Mexican American war the century before.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 04:51:36 PM
Which is why Germany turned to them. They had motivation to fight America and if the US had resources tied up at home, they'd be too busy to fight Germany. Or so they thought.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 04:53:31 PM
I suppose so. it is quite interesting though, how many things took place.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
I LOVE it. And its one of the reasons I shake my fist at Westerfeld for not opening up this whole, GLORIOUS playground to us.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
I honestly think the events prior to the war are more interesting. Seeing how the web of deals and treaties came to be.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 05:02:36 PM
Yeah...only the first three months...that's not cool.  Those are cool too, I like Russia's involvement
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 05:04:57 PM
The web of war...that's what my history teacher called it.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 05:09:26 PM
Which reminds me, wasn't Italy supposed to be part of the Central powers up until a short time before the war started? I only mention it because Scott (Or maybe Keith) made the neutral nations Darwinist, which includes Italy.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 05:12:11 PM
Yeah,  Italy was originally with the Central powers.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 05:12:17 PM
I think it has more to do with their locations than their neutralities. He also made the south of America Darwinist and the north Clanker desptie the obvious problems with that. And of course we never SEE Darwinist America...which I was really really really hoping to see.
On that, Barking; Seattle's Darwinist.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 05:14:39 PM
Heh, Seattle is very Darwinist...or other cities around there are...my old school I'm ninth grade had one of the highest pregnancy rates in the country.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 05:18:29 PM
Well we saw the North, which is traditionally heavily industrial. The south would have been interesting to say the least. The very Christian, very conservative, population would have clashed with the usefulness of Darwinist fabs for use in agriculture and raising animals. The thing with Italy, tho, is that you'd think in their universe the terms of the deal would have included being a Clanker state. At the most it would have been Clankinist, not full Darwinist. Especially with the Vatican being located within Italy.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 05:26:23 PM
Well, aside from THAT...our origins are very darwinist are they not? Lumber and agriculture. Lots of uses for fabrications. And then comes the Clanker side, for Boeing and our shipyards and fisheries...and so begins the wonder of symbiosis like the Japanese have.
And then, come 1910, Dr. Hasley sets up base in what is now Discovery Park.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 05:29:20 PM
I'd be neck deep in a long-running debate over the subject. You can't go anywhere without being less than a stone's throw from a farm or ranch around here, and can't go a hundred yards without seeing a church.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 05:34:12 PM
Origins, as in the 1500s? definitely not...We were extremely religious. Even if there was no such thing as machines back then...people thought it was a sin for girls to wear anything that came above their ankles.

And that's what its like in Utah, I would see like ten churches in one small town like, umm...Ballard. Even though that's technically not a town...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 05:38:04 PM
I love how my town is literally one letter removed from yours. But I doubt the Texas Taliban, er Southern Baptists, would like Darwinism very much.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 05:39:53 PM
I doubt that too, aye. And by origins I meant Seattle's, in the 1800s. The Denny Party and such.
Heh. Ballard. Actually, Ballard joined up with Seattle in 1914 or so...meaning that, in DF, there are a LOT of angry people...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 05:44:21 PM
I can imagine with all the fuss people around here put up over a display of the Nativity scene.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 05:45:12 PM
Ohh, Yes. I just think the whole country should be clanker...too many religions would make it impossible to be Darwinist. And Independent Fundamental Baptists too.

I don't live there...I said that for Straif's benefit cause I'm assuming he lives there, by posting the Ballard high book club on his sig. I live a few miles away though.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
Yep XD. Actually I live in Greenwood, techinically but close enough. And I just like the fact I can fit int Seattle history into my works.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 05:51:46 PM
The closest big city to me is Dallas (two hours away), but I could write that companion piece down here. There used to be a military base in the area some years ago.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 05:52:36 PM
Find out when it started up and when it closed down. Could have DF stop there on their way back from Mexico.
Where do you live? I was in Houston in 2004.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 05:53:43 PM
Ohh, especially the one that they took out of the White House. People were furious!

I have actually never heard of that town? Or district of Seattle? I don't even know...And I don't know that much about Seattle's history, sadily. except the basic stuff like the big fire and the Indians...

I just passed by I10...I think it was, in July
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 06:00:28 PM
Ballard was a seperate city until about 1914 when it was annexed.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:03:23 PM
I live near the small town of Bullard, which is outside the city of Tyler. And that base may have actually been a Confederate Prison Camp and not an actual military base. Oops.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
Ah...pity.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:05:59 PM
I don't think I went through there.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:11:09 PM
Yeah, after that the nearest military bases are the one in Killeen or Shreveport. I don't remember enough about Killeen to write about it and I've only seen part of Shreveport. I'd do better to write about Alexandria (Virginia) or Colorado Springs.

No, you'd have to have been headed to Shreveport to have gone near here, but then you'd have taken a really roundabout way.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:14:30 PM
Is that near the Mexico border? I travelled on the road that goes across the widest point. I thunk its ten but I don't remember...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:16:47 PM
Not even close. We're in the are of Dallas, so we're almost in northern Texas.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:18:20 PM
Oh. Hmm. Well I haven't heard of it...you know, its very hot in Texas...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:20:11 PM
Yeah, it's December and I could still go swimming in the lake if I felt like it and it would still be lukewarm.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:22:49 PM
It was 110 one of the days I was there...at 8pm. I'm used to the cool weather of Washington ...where the highest in summer is like 85. (Its probably higher than that...)
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 06:23:28 PM
We had 90+ a couple times. And 100 a couple years ago. 103.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:27:14 PM
Yeah, it was like that for a week the summer I moved here. It was a bit of a shock coming down from Colorado. I have my window open now and it's fairly warm in my room with a fan running where in Colorado (or Virginia for that matter) I'd be freezing to death right about now.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:29:27 PM
Yeah. There was a heat wave while I was gone. I left before it started and got back at the tail end of it. Heh. I told one of the girls in my school that it was going to be one of the hottest summers since like the sixties and she didn't believe me. Heh. I go outside in 30degree weather in a Camus and short shorts and I'm fine. Though my feet were cold...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:32:18 PM
I wear a scarf when it's 60 I'm so used to the heat here. It's terrible.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:35:33 PM
Ohh, I know what that'd like. I used to live in Africa, near the equator and we were rapped up in blankets and had heaters when it was 75. When we came back to the states, in the winter mind you, we were in a freezer...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:36:47 PM
Yeah, humans are weird like that.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:40:54 PM
Mhmm. And we are totally off topic on this. Haha
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:44:45 PM
Um, Bavaria's kinda humid in the Summer, and humidity is evil. So by extension Germany is evil...?
Or, better yet: http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/4076227+_885126532cde6aeb1b56e446e34eb69a.jpg
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:49:06 PM
Heh. Mississippi is humid!

Heh. But back on topic, I don't necessarily think Germany is evil, maybe the leaders...but if you think about it, the light was just shined on them with a bad light...if that makes sense...some things about Germany are pretty cool. But that's my opinion.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 06:50:06 PM
Most things about Germany are cool.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 06:52:39 PM
Germany is very cool. Except for the mullets, those are, and never will be, cool.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 06:57:12 PM
Hahaha, yeah...Germans are awesome.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 02, 2012, 07:01:41 PM
What mullets?
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 07:02:34 PM
Yeah, but they pay about $9.00 US for a gallon of gas and more-or-less own Greece at this point with all the bailout money, so they're paying for that awesomeness.

Mullets are pretty popular in Germany from what I understand.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: BarkingLizards on December 02, 2012, 07:04:11 PM
Its a hair style. Used to be popular here in the seventies
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 02, 2012, 07:06:58 PM
"Business int he front, party in the back,"
http://www.ratemymullet.com/mullets242/51.jpg
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: gavinfuzzy on December 02, 2012, 10:54:15 PM
Holy crap, gone for half a day and the thread grew 6 more pages.  :o

All I can say is...
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/7a/7aa3e695_rainbow_drool.gif)
So much fan-fic.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 03, 2012, 09:49:50 AM
Didn't see any mullets when I was there.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 03, 2012, 10:28:23 AM
It's just a stereotype. I didn't see any myself, to be honest.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: One Person on December 03, 2012, 12:34:26 PM
What the heck are mullets?
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 03, 2012, 12:34:49 PM
Its a hairstyle.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: One Person on December 03, 2012, 12:39:15 PM
And because this is a book for teens who want romance and a little action, not history nerds with hardons for technology and biological combat.
HA! Death to Twilight!!

I'm not good at history, but I like the action and the emotions of it. Like D-day and Stalingrad.

Quote
Its a hairstyle.
A hairstyle? What does it look like, Straif?
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 03, 2012, 12:44:22 PM
Yeah, pretty much...Though D-Day and Stalingrad are kinda overdone now.

As for what it looks like...the Beatle's had them I think.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on December 03, 2012, 01:06:57 PM
"Business int he front, party in the back,"
(http://www.ratemymullet.com/mullets242/51.jpg)

Since people don't click links...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Bramblepool on December 06, 2012, 02:15:35 PM
.....
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: gavinfuzzy on December 06, 2012, 07:28:54 PM
Again,

(http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/41961.jpg)

 :(
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on December 07, 2012, 05:34:17 AM
Mullets, apperently.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Yone on January 06, 2013, 06:19:40 AM
Well, I never see sombody here with this hairstyl.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: ArtofLightning on January 08, 2013, 03:32:17 AM
I don't know. But the most evil "German" wasn't even German he was Austrian.  :P Austrian's are the ones who based the two world wars.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on January 08, 2013, 05:22:52 AM
We're talking in Leviathan, not real life. Hitler doesn't count.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: ArtofLightning on January 09, 2013, 03:11:17 AM
Or nevermind. I guess my imput was invalid. :-\ I was kinda proud of that
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Yone on January 16, 2013, 06:22:29 AM
Hm, Asshole Hitler was Austrian. But the stupit people who folow him were Germans, unfortunately.

Its so sh***, that we are always the bads.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on January 16, 2013, 06:57:43 AM
It really is...Germany is an awesome country. You gave us curry wurst, the assault rifle, rockets and Ulrich Stern.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Time Blitz on May 07, 2013, 11:07:44 PM
Time for my two cents!

I don't think Westerfeld meant to insult the German people by portraying them as evil. I think he was over-exaggerating the fact that Germany was a large instigator of World War One. If you look at the political times, Wilhelm did STRONGLY encourage Austria-Hungary to declare war on the Serbs after the death of Ferdinand. It was for a number of reasons, but a big one was that Germany's leaders wanted to "flex their muscles" and make a show of power.

Germany itself did not deserve the punishments of the Treaty of Versailles. The harshness and cruelty of the treatment of Germany lead directly to WWII. But despite that it was not completely and soley responsible for the war, it did play a substantial part in starting it.

In short, Germany isn't evil, Panzers are awesome, and I like schnitzel.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: artimousguy on May 08, 2013, 07:54:30 AM
Well I don't think he meant to put Germany as the bad guys, plus it's the main thing people rely on like old war movies, games, and stuff like that, he probably didn't know what to do it on. :-\

I have no idea why he did made Germany look bad. :-\
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: MonkeyButler on May 08, 2013, 09:15:06 AM
Well, the characters we get any insight from are against the Germans, so of course they're biased and like to put them as the bad guys.  Whereas, if the characters were german, they would be making the British look bad.  That's kind of the thing about war, there's no Goofus or Gallant.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: artimousguy on May 08, 2013, 10:50:09 AM
Well yeah and plus if they had it in a war in this time era then they would make Iraq look bad. It's just a book so it doesn't really matter.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Daft_Prince on May 11, 2013, 10:58:03 PM
Straif, I swear I'm gonna start counting the percentage of posts you mention Darwin's Fist in. I'm thinking about 20%?

Honestly, I don't think it makes the Germans look evil. They're simply on the other side to most of the characters, so they're naturally the threat. I'm sure if the protagonists were German soldiers we'd be sympathetic towards them. Also, it is noted that the British wanted the war as much as everyone else, and Alek doesn't feel good about killing Germans.

Personally, I blame the war on Austro-Hungary. They were the first to mount an invasion, and its not like the Emporer actually cared about Ferdinand. I may have read wrong, but I though Germany's Schleifen plan was made after Austria had told them of their intent?
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Daft_Prince on May 11, 2013, 11:00:28 PM
Also, Hi. 'Been a while since I posted here. I might stick around a bit but I won't be too active. I've got too much year 12 on my plate, I don't need anything more to procrastinate with.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: artimousguy on May 14, 2013, 01:39:05 PM
Yeah I know what you mean I need to finish a project that is due a month from last Tuesday and I am just to busy on this. :P
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: One Person on May 19, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
The Nazis are the worst Germans, and they are evil, yes?

But i know that's in WW2...I think Adolf Hitler is the only evil german if he appeared in Leviathan.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Time Blitz on May 19, 2013, 11:03:12 PM
He's not even German, at that.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: artimousguy on May 20, 2013, 02:35:23 PM
Well there are too many rumors of stuff about adolf but way too many I don't even think are true.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Time Blitz on May 22, 2013, 07:46:48 AM
It isn't a rumor that he was Austrian, it's a known fact. He also was claustrophobic, and was missing....some of his junk.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: sandy5 on May 22, 2013, 12:32:14 PM
I'm pretty sure he was also a vegetarian.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: artimousguy on May 23, 2013, 03:16:51 PM
THere were many rumors I also saw one saying he was a jew and he hated them because he was mocked by them his whole life and wanted revenge.  :-\
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Daft_Prince on May 23, 2013, 09:13:13 PM
The Nazis are the worst Germans, and they are evil, yes?

But i know that's in WW2...I think Adolf Hitler is the only evil german if he appeared in Leviathan.
I'm sure there were other evil Germans, there are evil people in every nation. Not to mention that Hitler was not solely responsible for the rise of the Nazi Party.

Hey! I'm finally a hero member! Looks like it happened when I finally came back, so I assume this is the forums recognising me as a veteran. 8)
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: artimousguy on May 28, 2013, 06:29:05 AM
Congrats ;D
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Rascal on June 15, 2013, 11:32:04 AM
Part of this is due to the history books, but in World War I the Germans were in a tough position. France wasn't happy with them because of the Franco-Prussian War. Germany had only been its own empire since 1871. Britain dominated most of the world with its vast colonies too, even though Germany wanted to increase its own Navy and influence. And then of course the Germans still had Russia on its border, with only Germany and Austria-Hungary as the sole buffers between it and the rest of Europe.

Taking all of this into account, the Germans could have either rolled over and suffered France and Britain's thumb, or they could seek a war and hope to grab some colonies and territory in the process. Furthermore, this would cement them as a world power (not just a European power), and also quiet anti-Monarch unrest caused by the growing power of the Social Democratic party. Unify everyone with a war and all that, you know.

So, it wasn't so much that Germany was evil in WW1, but they had very few options other than giving up their ambitions or joining a war. Despite the discrete moral compass of the world of Leviathan, France, Britain and Russia were not blameless for what led to WW1.

There are even those that would argue that WW2 and the rise of the Nazi Party was a direct result of the Treaty of Versailles.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Kaiser Beowulf on June 23, 2013, 02:55:29 AM
The Germans aren't evil, it's just the fact that they are opposed to both Deryn and Alek that makes it seem that way. Also, many of the European powers at the time felt threatened by a powerful Germany, so it was only natural to be afraid.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on June 23, 2013, 04:08:19 AM
All fear Germany and her mighty technological superiority, aye...anyone remeber the Herkules?
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Kaiser Beowulf on June 23, 2013, 04:23:59 AM
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120105142354/leviathanscottwesterfeld/images/c/c7/Herkules.jpg)
This is why I think Clankers are better than Darwinists.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on June 23, 2013, 04:59:16 AM
You wanna argue that, take it to the other thread.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Panzercrappitastica on June 23, 2013, 06:44:00 AM
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120105142354/leviathanscottwesterfeld/images/c/c7/Herkules.jpg)
This is why I think Clankers are better than Darwinists.
There's a different thread for arguing about Clankers v. Darwinists
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Time Blitz on June 23, 2013, 06:52:38 AM
I love how fast people here get off topic!
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: One Person on June 23, 2013, 01:23:28 PM
I love how fast people here get off topic!
Happens every time. Humans...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Panzercrappitastica on June 23, 2013, 01:39:14 PM
Umm... we're off topic talking about how we tend to get off topic... anyone else see the irony here?

Back on topic, the Germans weren't presented as 'evil', per say, but they never were presented as good, either. This, I think, is basically because Deryn is on the opposite side of the war as them, so of course she would view them as the bad guys; and they've been hunting Alek since page one. Literally, page one.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on June 23, 2013, 05:06:42 PM
Irony indeed.

Its all about perspective...if, say, Leviathan had been written from a GERMANS perspective (Blitz, I'm looking at  YOU to write that as a fanfic, with Beowulf's help) the Darwinists would be seen as the bad guys.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Time Blitz on June 23, 2013, 10:00:58 PM
Aye, it's the kind if war where each side is enemy to the other,earning every instant of each others hate.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Panzercrappitastica on June 24, 2013, 12:56:28 AM
Yeah, I totally agree that if Leviathan had been written from the Germans point of view; like one of them hunting Alek; Alek would seem like the bad guy for running away; and the Leviathan would seem like a bad guy for helping him. Or, if the Germans were helping Alek instead of hunting him... the book could be shown from both sides of the war against each other... which would be awesome... then both sides would be shown as bad guys sometimes.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on June 24, 2013, 04:05:54 AM
It would have been like Mortal Engines.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Panzercrappitastica on June 24, 2013, 04:08:04 AM
Haven't read that... yet...
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Straif on June 24, 2013, 04:13:54 AM
Do so when you get the chance.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Panzercrappitastica on June 24, 2013, 04:15:07 AM
It is on my... very long... list.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: One Person on June 25, 2013, 02:23:44 PM
Yeah, I totally agree that if Leviathan had been written from the Germans point of view; like one of them hunting Alek; Alek would seem like the bad guy for running away; and the Leviathan would seem like a bad guy for helping him. Or, if the Germans were helping Alek instead of hunting him... the book could be shown from both sides of the war against each other... which would be awesome... then both sides would be shown as bad guys sometimes.
I remember back in the good old days that I write a horrid fanfiction about a German agent trying to assassinate his cousin Alek after killing his parents. From what I written about him, the German is an anti-hero who loves to kill for the fatherland.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Panzercrappitastica on June 25, 2013, 02:49:39 PM
Except the Germans weren't bad guys... most wars aren't good guy/bad guy. For example, the Revolutionary War. Nearly everyone in the U.S. tends to think of it as Patriots=good; Loyalists and Britain=bad. But it isn't that simple, and to prove my point, I did a persuasive essay for the Loyalists. For this, it's definitely a 'victor writes the history books' type thing. Same with World War 1.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Daft_Prince on June 25, 2013, 04:58:44 PM
I think one of the problems is people get get WWI and WWII confused, and arguing that the Nazis were the good guys is very difficult indeed.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Panzercrappitastica on June 25, 2013, 11:41:53 PM
Yes, WWII was pretty good guy/bad guy. That's why I said most wars aren't ;)
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on June 26, 2013, 07:27:50 AM
I wouldn't say that the Nazi's were black and white bad guys. Sure, looking at them they seem pretty terrible, but they had what they believed to be Germany's best interest at heart. The Holocaust is unforgivable, but it was called the "Final Solution" for a reason. They didn't like Jews, so initially they simply tried to ship them out of Germany. It wasn't until every nation refused to take in the Jews that they decided to start killing them. If not for this act, Germany would be the revenge-seeking underdog that is so popular in films.

The allies weren't completely good either. Most of them had partaken in the negotiations for the Treaty of Versailles, and unfairly put the blame for the war on Germany. America placed Japanese-American citizens in internment camps, an extreme act of xenophobia and racism. In a lot of places, indiscriminate carpet-bombing was used to level whole cities. Not to mention the development and implementation of atomic weaponry, which were used on heavily populated cities full of civilians.

No war is black and white, no matter what your propaganda says. It's simply a matter of perspective.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: Panzercrappitastica on June 26, 2013, 07:37:57 AM
Okay. I don't know very much about World War II, actually.
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: TractionEra on June 26, 2013, 08:15:17 AM
Its fine, I know too much about WWII
Title: Re: Why are the Germans the evil?
Post by: gavinfuzzy on June 26, 2013, 11:55:03 PM
Everything spoken in german sounds angry.