In the comments to the previous post, there have been many fierce arguments about Phillip Pullman’s His Dark Materials.
It’s great to see you all debating this so seriously. And despite the fact that some of you are getting angry and making more typos than usual, you’re actually much more respectful to each other than most adults. (If you ever glance at political sites, you’ll read far ruder things than appear here.) I’m happy to see that. I like you guys a lot, and the community we’ve created here together is important to me. Keep being nice to each other!
But keep arguing too. Debating is an important thing to learn to do, even when it’s crazy-making.
However, I want to point out one thing that keeps going missing in the debate about Pullman: At no point in His Dark Materials do the characters kill god. This rumor isn’t a “controversial” aspect of the trilogy, it’s a lie about the trilogy. And like so many lies these days, this one is spread by people forwarding emails to each other. You probably have seen this sort of thing happen with rumors in school; after all, it’s more fun to spread a nasty rumor than it is figure out the truth behind it.
But how do I know this rumor isn’t true? Well, unlike rumors about what happened at someone’s party or who kissed whom, everything in His Dark Material is written down, and you can read it to find out exactly what happens. So if you go to page 188 of the US mass market paperback of Amber Spyglass, you’ll discover that Pullman’s Authority is not the creator. He’s not god. Ogunwe says so in the following words, “It shocked some of us, too, to learn that the Authority was not the creator.”
Case closed. The Authority is a fraud. He’s a liar, just like the people who started the rumor that in His Dark Materials the characters “kill god.” In a funny way, those people are trying to pull off the same kind of trick as the Authority. Okay, they’re not exactly playing god, but they are lying to control what you read, which affects what you think, and what you believe. They are frauds. (Or VERY sloppy readers.)
Of course, as with most rumors, the vast majority of the people saying these things aren’t lying. They’re just passing the rumor on without knowing if it’s true or not. That’s not as bad, but it’s also not something you get a medal for.
By the way, there’s another place where you can see that no one “kills god” in HDM. That’s the scene where he dies. Lyra and Will find him and free him from the place the bad guys have been keeping him and using him as a symbol to help them control everyone. It turns out he’s really old. Here’s how it happens in the book:
Between them they helped the ancient of days out of his crystal cell; it wasn’t hard, for he was as light as paper, and he would have followed them everywhere, having no will of his own, and responding to simple kindness like a flower to the sun. But in the open air there was nothing to stop the wind from damaging him, and to their dismay his form began to loosen and dissolve. Only a few moments later he had vanished completely, and their last impression was of those eyes, blinking in wonder, and a sigh of the most profound and exhausted relief.
Now, come on. Does that sound like Lyra and Will are “killing” him? Could anyone actually misread that as a murder? They’re “dismayed” when he dies. It’s a sad and touching scene, not a victory lap.
So he’s not god, and Lyra and Will don’t kill him. Anyone who says otherwise a) hasn’t read it, b) can’t read, c) is lying.
Sorry to keep pointing this out, but false rumors really annoy me. Especially when they’re used to keep books out of people’s hands.
I’m not saying you all have to go read Pullman right now. Maybe you just don’t like armoured bears. But there’s one thing you really should remember: People who tell you juicy rumors, on the internet or in real life, usually aren’t trying to help you by giving you secret, important info. Very often, they’re trying to make themselves feel important, or hurt someone else, or control you in some way.
Don’t assume rumors are true, no matter how often you hear them.
I didnt even know you left. Hmph, life can be breath taking.
Banning books is certaninly bot rediculous. And they are not pointless everlasting arguments. there are resonabled thought out debates. Everything happens for a reason.
i ment to say not ridiculous not bot. Me and my screwed up hands.
ummm, i would go out on a limb to say banning books is ridiculous.
you should be able to choose what you want to read or not read, and no one should have the athority to decide what is fit for the rest of the world’s consumption.
and harry potter promoting witchcraft? i’d say that’s a pretty pointless everlasting argument. the magic in harry potter is nothing like real-life “witchcraft”, and the books have that never-ending message of tolerence and acceptance, which isn’t what i’d call objectionable.
How is book banning not rediculous? I mean, I can see maybe not putting the bible and worship books in school libraries, but banning Hary Potter?! Banning His Dark Materials?! They’re amazing books that people need to have easy access to, and people that try to ban them just make me mad.
And I think that arguments are pointless because, like Scott said, Lyra and Will don’t actually kill god! Just because a guy PRETENDING to be god did die, doesn’t mean he WAS god, and it doesn’t mean he was KILLED! And with Harry Potter… I honestly think that one is incredibly rediculous. It’s a fictional story about wizards and witches. Are they going to ban everybook about wizards and witches?
Man, i read the post from yesterday. Do you guys like hate me? I saw at least 3 comments all pointing out how i offended you are you disagree with me.
I dont care but it feels like you all want to STAB me. Really. Never had so many people hate me at once.
And i may have offend you, but the post offened me so i had no choice but to deffend my religion. Its my job as a Catholic.
i mean really, i think books that suck should be banned. but they aren’t. because not everyone agrees with me. i mean, i’d be, like, banning Eragon and Twilight and making Tithe required reading, which would definitly annoy a lot of people. say, the rabid twilight fans, and all those people who object to some of the crazier content in tithe.
so if i decided what was okay for the rest of the world to agree, a lot of people would throw fits.
what gives you or your people more athority or magical knowledge of right and wrong than me?
ooops, it posted twice, i think.
and i’m Catholic too, but i don’t defend book bannings or uninformed hate of things.
and we don’t *hate* you, or at least i don’t.
i just disagree with your opinions.
i say again–book. banning. is. bad.
usually because it’s over very stupid things (The Bermudez Triangle, anyone?) by people who haven’t read the books.
see, there’s this thing in this country called free speech. it means people have a right to whatever they want to read, not just what self-righteous strangers think is okay for them to read.
Well i do. I dont no, it just makes me mad. I see the point in banning, but i still want it gone.
Ok, read all you want. But there are some things, likr the 9/11 movie, that should be banned. I think it wrong to make a movie about that. how sad. I feel bad for the people who have to remeber that.
ok people im wore out, i have to go. Read and Read, w/e. Just rmeber to follow your FAITH! w/e it is.
Exactly! If they’re going to give anyone athority over banning books at all, they should at least give it to people who are reasonable about it! The people currently choosing are just insane. They look frantically for anything that they can possibly somehow twist into being in whatever way inappropriate. And for the most part, the books aren’t doing anything wrong at all! Not to mention, from what I’ve noticed in my research, they only ban the good stuff! If there’s an amazing book (i.e. harry potter. his dark materials.) that they can find a problem in, they jump to ban it! But if there’s a terrible book that actually DOES have something wrong with it, they don’t try to ban it at all! I read this thing about a book that totally sucked, and no one tried to ban it even though it was basically about a bunch of people idolizing Hitler. I gotta ask, What’s up with that?!?!?!
The Harry Potter witchcraft controversy is b/c JK Rowling researched real witchcraft and put it in the books. I think. idk if it’s true or not.
Even if she did, that doesn’t mean the books are bad at all! If I were writing a fictional story about World War II and I did real research on Hitler and put it in my book, would that mean it has to be banned!?
Bran-la said: Ok, read all you want. But there are some things, likr the 9/11 movie, that should be banned. I think it wrong to make a movie about that. how sad. I feel bad for the people who have to remeber that.
I’m not trying to attack yoru views, since you can have them, but banning a movie on something that happened? That affected many people? I mean, it’s a movie! Not everyone was born then and they need to know what happened! 9/11 was horrible and traumatic and scary, but just because it is a bad memory does not mean that documentaries should not be made about it. They’re educational. Sheesh.
After that I’ll just say that I am against banning books/movies/ etc. I think everyone has the right to write what they want and to read what they want — no one should try to take that right away. I mean, freedom of the press, people. Banning books is crazily against freedom of the press. Look it up.
(Ah! Don’t hurt me for disagreeing with you!)
Honestly, I find nothing wrong with the 9/11 movie either. I thought it was great that they made one. I mean, I had a cousin die in the 9/11 disaster, and the movie was actually good, maybe extremely sad, but I was extremely glad that they made one! It’s no worse than movies about WW II(What is with me today and world war II?!)! It may seem diferent if you didn’t live during WW II and you did during the terrorist attacks, but it’s really the same thing.
Disney was an antisemite, but I still love his work (even though I myself am Jewish)
I personally don’t like learning about the author of books. It makes it more a reality that the book’s setting is fiction rather than a real place you can go to. (Scott Westerfeld is an exception of course, because he is just plain awesome.)
I think that if you are making a movie to aducate people that is good. But if you are making it just because people don’t want you to that is bad.
Alli-wa said: I think that if you are making a movie to aducate people that is good. But if you are making it just because people don’t want you to that is bad.
Yeah, that would be bad. But I don’t think people would spend all that money and time to make something that no one would want them to make. XP
oops I meant educate, not aducate. my bad.
wow somehow I missed a bunch of comments when I read/skimmed over/re-read them.
I agree w/ Serafina: Books should be banned if they suck. I would have a whole list of bad books that no one should ever read…
hehe. I like lost of books, but I could write stuff way better than some stuff I read that would never get published.
I don’t agree with book banning. I think people should be able to suggest people to read books, or suggest people not to read books, but they shouldn’t forcefully keep people from reading books. People can read or not read what they choose, and it’s not a big deal. So why are people making it a big deal?
i heard that Pullman was a Catholic before becoming an Athiest. Is that true or a lie? I would check Wikipedia, but who knows if what I read there is ture or not, and besides, I reaaallllyyy have to go…
I told my friend — who also likes Scott’s books – just not as much as me —
I won’t read the Twilight books — not because she is a bad writer. I have no Idea how she writes, never read any of her material, It is because I find it hard after reading Peeps and Last Days, which I love, to read another vampire book that has TOTALLY different ideas. I honestly don’t know how people that read peeps can read Twilight and crap like that.
It would ruin the whole essence of Peeps.
hold on! Twilight is amazing and i don’t know if scotts is to but hers are great just give em a shot.Please.
Second I am not allowed to READ the Golden Compass or any other of his books because of the reason of what ever it is i don’t understand. I am curious and have never ever been banned from reading anything befor.
Third TWILIGHT and other”crap l;ike that are NOT CRAP!
P.s.I plann on reading peeps very soon as soon as i get my hands on a copy:(
I can’t say that’s ever happened to me. I read books about the same subjects all the time.
im not reading the book because of the rumors, im not reading it because it doesnt loook like i would enjoy it. i dont really care. i will defend any good book (like my friend wont read harry potter because it supports witch craft) i told my friend that wont read harry potter, why do they celebrate christmas in the book?
im not reading the book not because of the rumors is what i meant!
those are some cool words of wisdom.
yeah Harry Potter isn’t at all like His Dark Materials. But I didn’t know they celebrated Christmas…
ok i know im not debateing and im the occasonial poster(hey this blog is #1 on my homepage tabs)but you have to tell me if they eat the heart after the bear fight in the movie YOU HAVE TO TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
think all you want of me but know iv accepted it allready
and i love hdm its in my top 5 books and my dad got one of those emails and forwarded it to me and i was mad and he asked me if it changed my beliefs i said no but i do look at them differently
I think it’s pretty cool to have both Scott and Justine respond to one of my posts, even if you disagree with me (though I still disagree with y’all).
I haven’t actually received any emails but from the accounts I read in the media it seems like a lot of the opposition came from people talking about the books being about “killing God”.
Okay, now it seems like you’re saying (correct me if I’m wrong) that in HDM Dust is the real God and the Authority is just some kind of gnostic demiurge. I think Pullman would probably disagree with that but as Justine noted that’s not the final word (Isaac Asimov once corrected a critic on what one of his stories meant to which the critic replied: “Dr. Asimov, just because you wrote it why do you possibly think you know what it’s about?”) Now there’s room to quibble about that interpretation– angels fighting against the Authority are probably not the most unbiased source for information about their enemy. Certainly Lord Asrie had no problem with lying and deceiving Lyra and others (“Hey Roger, close your eyes… I’ve got a cool knife trick I wanna try.”) But even conceeding the point, Pullman explicitly states in the books that this false god is the God worshipped as God by, among other entities, the Christian religions of at least two worlds.
And while the Magisterium on this world doesn’t have souls-outside-the-body-as-animals it does exist, it’s the Catholic Church (Magisterium is a Catholic term). The other Magisterium also has other differences– Protestantism was co-opted before or/when John Calvin was made Pope (he moved the Papacy to Geneva where it gradually withered away).
Again, I don’t think the books should be banned– I think they should be widely read (though if I could make one book more widely read it would have to be The Risen Empire). But even though some Christians like them, there are other Christians who are genuinely offended by them for the reasons listed above (Author talking about killing God, their God being protrayed as an evil usurper, their Church being shown as evil…). I don’t think the response should be to call them “nitwits” (as Pullman did) or otherwise malign them.
Laura-la, if you really don’t read some books because they might contradict others then your going to miss out on a whole lot of really really amazing book! I’ve read PEEPS and TWILIGHT and I L-O-V-E them both, just because they conradict each other, it doesn really ruin any parts of them. Don’t rob yourself of amazing stories just because they diferenciate alot.
Jacob!! I just now read your post, and I have one small thing to say about it. It’s kind of just off a foot note, but I had to say something. :]
“though if I could make one book more widely read it would have to be The Risen Empire”
I soooooooooo agree. I’m the only person I know whose read The Risen Empire and The Killing Of Worlds. I wish people would read them so that they could see how amazing they are!!!!!!!
Ok, im thinking of not talking for awhile and just like not visiting this site.
This is not helping my self confidence level.
I no ‘i must be so Waco’ because i think some things are wrong and blah blah blah.
I just seem to be put down. 🙁
Time to hibernate since im some big bad beast now.
Let me just get this out before i go ballistic.
I will never ever ever read the Golden Compass and its followers.
I hate Harry Potter (Bore me to death)
The 9/11 movie is just to sad to be in theaters or store or w/e.
I should not be hated so much on this blog for my opinions.
And Scott-la should start backing me up!
If you don’t here from me, refer to comment 85 for my reasonings. I have reasons and i also have an easily messed up self confidence level, as my friends broadly point out!
Bran-la!! Just b/c some people don’t have the same opinion as you doesn’t mean they don’t like you!!!! I, for one, like you as a person, even if I don’t agree with you on some things. And I don’t even know you in real life!!
You’re not “some big bad beast” as you put it. I just think alot of people here don’t agree with you on some things you say. But it’s okay to have your own opinion. But if I were you I would sorta hold it back for a better place…like church, maybe? Where more people might agree with you.
Okay. So, Lyra and Will do not kill “god”. But Christians still have plenty to gripe about. In “His Dark Materials” we are portrayed as the bad guys. We torture and kill small children…? I mean, c’mon! An entire religion gets trashed in this series and for what? Because Susan goes to hell for wearing lipstick? I find the idea of a man writing an entire series in “response” to Lewis laughable. The sad thing is that Pullman is a brilliant writer. Why’d he have to go and alienate his audience? I’m disappointed in him.
wow. I’m queen of redundancy…”I just think alot of people don’t agree with you on some things you say.” ok sorry I really didn’t need to point that out but when I do things like that it really bothers me.
Now return your normal broadcast day.
Ok so i wont leave. I’m to addicted anyway. I guess its ok to ‘be different’. I can be so pathetic sometimes. But thanks Allie-wa for you uplifting speech, your a good person to, even though i have no clue who you really are! 🙂
Right now i am decorating the upstairs tree which has ornaments that are shaped like candy’s and stuff.!
I’m going to have to agree (somewhat) with Bran-La…..I don’t think the movie should be banned. But I do find it morally reprihensible to capitalize off of the pain and suffering of those affected by September 11th. Documentaries=informational. Movies=$$$
Lauren: Are you saying that you don’t agree with he series and that he is attacking a religion like Christianity? Jw.
That is true i didn’t think of the money part. And even though its history, think of the people who watched it and had to cry all over again for there lost ones. Its sad.
Me? good person? why, thank you!
I’m glad I convinced you to stay. 🙂 I actually do like everyone here! I wouldn’t want anyone to leave. That would be sad-making.
Ya you guys are all really cool. i have made new friends who i dont know except for there personality, which is the best kind, right?
Lauren, I don’t think Pullman alientated his audience. I mean, if what he wants is to write about contraversial things, then he’s obviously aiming at a particular audience whose interested. Not to mention, lots and lots of christians do read those books all the time. The only people he alianted were the ones who were pointedly taking offense from it. I’m very religious, but I still adore the books. People can read things about beliefs diferent from theirs without faltering from they’re own. It’s not monkey see-monkey do. Also, it’s like capt. cockatiel said, how if you know your looking at something very influencial your much less likely to be influenced byit.
And Bran-la, I’m really sorry if I lowered yourself confidence at all, I just disagreed with most of what you said. You seem like a cool person and all, I just don’t see things the same way as you, obviously. I’m pretty liberal. But about the 9/11 movie, sure, it’s extremely sad, but so are other things.
Take it from someone who really knows; that movie helped alot with closure. People need to know what heppened that day.
This is inspiring me to go on an anti-censorship rant, but I think I’ll refrain from it.
I’m annoyed by his attacking christianity and basically any organized religion. It ruins a book when you read and realize to the author you are the bad guy.
THANK YOU LAUREN!!! Someone who agrees with me!!! Oh, so happy-making. Sorry, i have just been waiting for someone to realize what i have. Love you all but…..
WHOPEEEE!