One Last Pullman Post

Posted on by scott

In the comments to the previous post, there have been many fierce arguments about Phillip Pullman’s His Dark Materials.

It’s great to see you all debating this so seriously. And despite the fact that some of you are getting angry and making more typos than usual, you’re actually much more respectful to each other than most adults. (If you ever glance at political sites, you’ll read far ruder things than appear here.) I’m happy to see that. I like you guys a lot, and the community we’ve created here together is important to me. Keep being nice to each other!

But keep arguing too. Debating is an important thing to learn to do, even when it’s crazy-making.

However, I want to point out one thing that keeps going missing in the debate about Pullman: At no point in His Dark Materials do the characters kill god. This rumor isn’t a “controversial” aspect of the trilogy, it’s a lie about the trilogy. And like so many lies these days, this one is spread by people forwarding emails to each other. You probably have seen this sort of thing happen with rumors in school; after all, it’s more fun to spread a nasty rumor than it is figure out the truth behind it.

But how do I know this rumor isn’t true? Well, unlike rumors about what happened at someone’s party or who kissed whom, everything in His Dark Material is written down, and you can read it to find out exactly what happens. So if you go to page 188 of the US mass market paperback of Amber Spyglass, you’ll discover that Pullman’s Authority is not the creator. He’s not god. Ogunwe says so in the following words, “It shocked some of us, too, to learn that the Authority was not the creator.”

Case closed. The Authority is a fraud. He’s a liar, just like the people who started the rumor that in His Dark Materials the characters “kill god.” In a funny way, those people are trying to pull off the same kind of trick as the Authority. Okay, they’re not exactly playing god, but they are lying to control what you read, which affects what you think, and what you believe. They are frauds. (Or VERY sloppy readers.)

Of course, as with most rumors, the vast majority of the people saying these things aren’t lying. They’re just passing the rumor on without knowing if it’s true or not. That’s not as bad, but it’s also not something you get a medal for.

By the way, there’s another place where you can see that no one “kills god” in HDM. That’s the scene where he dies. Lyra and Will find him and free him from the place the bad guys have been keeping him and using him as a symbol to help them control everyone. It turns out he’s really old. Here’s how it happens in the book:

Between them they helped the ancient of days out of his crystal cell; it wasn’t hard, for he was as light as paper, and he would have followed them everywhere, having no will of his own, and responding to simple kindness like a flower to the sun. But in the open air there was nothing to stop the wind from damaging him, and to their dismay his form began to loosen and dissolve. Only a few moments later he had vanished completely, and their last impression was of those eyes, blinking in wonder, and a sigh of the most profound and exhausted relief.

Now, come on. Does that sound like Lyra and Will are “killing” him? Could anyone actually misread that as a murder? They’re “dismayed” when he dies. It’s a sad and touching scene, not a victory lap.

So he’s not god, and Lyra and Will don’t kill him. Anyone who says otherwise a) hasn’t read it, b) can’t read, c) is lying.

Sorry to keep pointing this out, but false rumors really annoy me. Especially when they’re used to keep books out of people’s hands.

I’m not saying you all have to go read Pullman right now. Maybe you just don’t like armoured bears. But there’s one thing you really should remember: People who tell you juicy rumors, on the internet or in real life, usually aren’t trying to help you by giving you secret, important info. Very often, they’re trying to make themselves feel important, or hurt someone else, or control you in some way.

Don’t assume rumors are true, no matter how often you hear them.

193 thoughts on “One Last Pullman Post”

  1. First???? Me???
    I just finished the first (GC) book and it was absolutely AMAZING! I simply *cannot* wait to get my hands on the next one.

    I never understand all that religious controversy over books (especially since I didn’t see any in this one). To me, books are like another world- a magic world. They’re called fiction because they are- but I do learn tons from them.

    But anyway, I’m looking forward to seeing GC tomorrow (the movie) =]
    <3

  2. I’m glad that’s been cleared up. It was sort of weird to see people actually getting angry at each other on this site.

    This post made me think of the site Snopes, reminding me to then check if they had written anything on it- which they had. Seems they’re on the “Pullman hates Christians” bandwagon, as well.

  5. Fantastic post. Thanks for breaking it all down. I’m going to forward this link to a few friends who are wary of the series because of the above mentioned emails going around!

  6. yes! another score for intelligent discourse!

    and as others have said, lying is bad. spreading rumors is bad. saying completely untrue things is bad. smearing things is bad.

    very interesting post—was cool to read some thinking posts of longness and not just short announcements or cool links.

    and really, discussions on the internet, especially about religion, get very, very stupid. they’re all “YOU HATE JESUS!” and “YEAH I HATE JESUS CUZ HE DOESN’T EXIST!!” and “YOU’RE GOING TO HELL, THEN!”

    if people take thirty seconds to even pretend to listen to each other, then a lot of created contraversies go away.
    another point—CREATED. CONTRAVERSY.
    notice how no one had any problems with the trilogy until they made a high-profile movie out of it?

  7. Thank you so much for posting this. This is one of the things that bothers me most about all the discussion/argument about this series. Every time anyone says something about ‘killing god’ I cringe and think ‘but…but..!’, especially when the person who posted was apparently trying to defend the series. It is wonderful to see someone point that out in a public blog like this.

  8. ok you know whats great about ya blogs kids post kids get stuff that most adults dont so when theres a debate its only about the obiouse some adults say kids are dumb NO! most of us arnt dumb we may not know everything but we get adult question “should this book be banned?” adult awnser “NO!” adult awnser #2 “YES!” kid awnser ” but i want to read it but my friend dosent is it really your chose what we should read?” gosh i know this from personal experiance not saying all adult are like this but alot are

    i know this is kind of off subject but its just so true maybe thats why the transition from adult to kid is so WEIRD personality wise(u know)!

    ok this is realy off subject but those of you that have seen the movie when they have the bear fight do they eat the heart i mean that was sooo cool(sorry im weird) and sybolic…

  10. Thank you, Scott, from the perspective of a high school librarian. I’m tagging this one in del.icio.us to use for future censorship displays.

  13. I’m sure this makes me a horrible person, but… I’m disappointed that they *don’t* kill God! I, too, have not read HDM yet, and I, too, thought that HDM was this militantly atheist answer to The Chronicles Of Narnia, where God is killed and/or dies.

    And, the thing is… I thought that was *awesome*! And I’m not an atheist, “militant” or otherwise; I’m a semi-observant, quasi-secular Jew who keeps vaguely kosher. (I definitely felt weird typing that I was disappointed that they don’t kill “God”!)

    And I’ve got nothing against the Narnia books; I loved them as a kid. But the way that fundies have co-opted the recent film adaptation sets my teeth on edge, so when I thought there was a series that went the entirely other way, I got really jazzed.

    So, all I can say is: Aw, man.

    Also, Scott, I love the Uglies series to bits and pieces and can’t wait to read Extras. I find your work awesome and inspiring.

  14. Comment the second: Um, I haven’t read the other thread, so I hope my post doesn’t cause a flamewar. No flamewars! Pretty please! I know my opinion is wacky and probably not shared by any other rational human.

  15. good moral
    sadly i havent read the book
    i read the golden compass like 2 years ago though!!
    *starts praying that fans of goldencompass dont kill me* (thinks: oh well ill sleep with my eyes open, again)

  17. *claps for scott*
    thanks for that great perspective. I think I should print this out and hand it to everyone of those stupid protesters outside the movie theater. (They don’t like me much. I sat on the bench reading The Golden Compass for the millionth time while discussing the amazingness of it and how the protests are misguided and all around stupid with my friends while waiting for my ride from the movie. tehehe)

  18. Thank you for helping clear this up, next time I see anyone who claims that they “killed God” I think I’ll point them this way.

  20. ha. scott-la, i think you’ve started a new chain email going around now.

    and that’s really funny, ImInLoveWithJonathan!. i would totally do something like that, where i just like made a big show of reading the book right in front of them.

    yeah, the christian extremist’s obsession with the Chronicles of Narnia bothered me too, because the books themselves largely avoided the overt, nauseatingly religious. i liked them a lot when i read them, but seeing them championed as this huge anti-Harry Potter made me not like them as much.

  21. That was exactly what I would have wanted to say. Thank you Scott! (I do want to e-mail this around now)

  22. I would like to pull a meaningful quote from your new (amazing) book of essays: “Ignorance doesn’t lead to salvation, nor does knowledge pave the way to sin” (bottom of page 29)

    I have shared this quote with my deeply Christian friends (who are also secretly big GC fans) and they now use it whenever someone bad mouths the book to them.

    Thank you Scott!

    P.S. I have a special space on my bookshelf (right between JK Rowling and Tamara Pierce) for EVERY one of your books! I treasure them!

  23. Where would people have gotten the idea that the books were about killing God?

    Maybe it was when the author said: “My books are about killing God.”

    Also, I wouldn’t say that the Authority is not God because he’s a fraud. Pullman’s point is that God (i.e. the God of the Bible) is a fraud.

    And that’s fine. There’s a lot of books with Christian themes, why can’t there be one with an athiest theme. But we shouldn’t pretend the books are something they’re not.

  24. I was just about to post the quote Jacob did, I guess I got here a little late.
    I was trying to defend Pullman to my dad(Who is way against all of it), and he got all indignant about it and found the quote where the author said his books where about killing god. And another quote straight from him, his book are “trying to undermine the basis of Christian Belief.”
    So, yeah the guy isn’t god. And true, they obviously did not kill this fake god, but he even says that its about undermining christianity.

  25. THANK YOU. geez. haha.

    I think a lot of people can get confused because The Authority isn’t the creator, but he’s the god of the Church. And also Pullman gets hilariously atheist-crazy in interviews sometimes (ie proclaiming the series as the anti-Chronicles of Narnia).

    I haven’t read the series in awhile. I really need to reread before I see The Golden Compass! =O

  26. Jacob & Savvy-la: That may well be what Pullman intended but it sure isn’t how the books read to me. I do not agree with his assessment of the trilogy. Actually, I’ve long since learned that you can’t always believe what authors say about their own books.

    For instance, I see no evidence in the Harry Potter books that Dumbledore is gay. I see no evidence that he isn’t either, but there’s nothing except Rowling’s say so that he is gay. If that’s what she intended then I don’t get why it wasn’t actually in the books.

  28. also, maybe it’s like “metaphorical”?
    you know, that craaaaazy craaaazy word that fundamentalist wackos don’t understand?
    like, maybe things in the bible aren’t word-for-word true?
    or maybe that showing a god can be corrupt or evil is showing that blindly following an organized religion can be bad?
    or, like, maybe showing that religious leaders can be imposters and liars even though people believe in them, and that maybe they really have no idea how the universe was created?
    or maybe that people do a lot of bad things in the name of thier gods?
    just some crazy interpretaions here…

  30. Yeah, I think that the books don’t really read anti-christian, but my dad wont buy them for me whether that’s true or not, which means I have to keep annoying my friends to borrow them. I just thought it was worth pointing out that, even if he didn’t do it pointedly, he did means them to be against christianty. It obviously all dpends on how your read them. I’m in the middle of The Subtle Knife right now, and see nothing bad at all about them. Just because the author has a few problems doesn’t mean we should avoid his great book, right?!

  31. Savvy-la: Just because the author has a few problems doesn’t mean we should avoid his great book, right?!

    While I’m not convinced Pullman has “problems” I do agree with your sentiment. One of my favourite writers is Knut Hamsun who was known for his fascist views and admiration for Hitler. Views I think are completely abhorrent. But wow was he a wonderful writer.

    Not reading books because the people who wrote them don’t share your religious or political beliefs mean robbing yourself of reading some of the great books in the world. Also how boring to only read books by people who think just like you.

  32. Thank you very much scott-la. although i dont think i still ever will read the books, i appreciate the explaination.
    And AGAIN scott-la, WHERE IS THE DERRING-DO ❓ i would really like to know.

  33. As far as I’m concerned, the world’s been more or less the same since the books were written. Any sharp decline in Christianity/sharp rise in Atheism? Not that I’ve heard of.

    I wonder: if you didn’t know these books were supposed to be about “killing God”, would you think they were? Or would it just be another fiction series to read?

    When I first started reading the Chronicles of Narnia I didn’t know they were supposed to symbolize Christianity, but after I learned they were, I saw symbolism everywhere (seriously. I re-read them to find symbolism)

    And um I actually do think the author might have a few problems.

  35. Thank you for clearing this up, Scott.
    However, I can see how people would get so upset. The area of God and religion is very sensitive, seeing how most people either strongly believe in God or strongly don’t believe in God. It seems like it would be easy to get confused by the book. Especially in a religious person’s case seeing as the already have a defensive wall up because people are always bashing their religion. I don’t think that anyone meant to start this whole thing(at least not the first people who actually read the books), they just saw that a God-figure died and immediately jumped to conclusions. And with books like the Da Vinci code out there, you can’t really blame them. Im sure there were some His Dark Materials arguments out there before, they were just made more public now that a movie is coming out.
    And I don’t think religious people were necessarily the only ones spreading this rumor without reading the book first.

  36. Ok after reading all the comments I really hope that you all don’t think all religious people are psychotic. You see, it even says in the Bible that the devil will disguise himself as an angel, and in my(very Catholic) opinion, the book-burning Christians are being led astray by that. It says in the Bible not to show off you religion(don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing). They think what they are doing is right, but what they should really do is put down the sign, pick up their Bible and go home to read it. There is a difference between being extremely religious(good), and being a religious extremist(bad).
    Pullman thinks his books are the anti-Narnia? Give me a break. They are popular, but nowhere near that famous and classic. That’s funny that he thinks he can like take down organized religion with them or something. I hate it when authors write good books but then open their mouths and ruin them. Its like, close the mouth and pick up a pen, buddy.
    But not you Scott-la, you’re awesome.

  37. i know—if you actually study religion, most of the things these people are doing are completely the opposite of what is actually preached.

    i mean, in the bible it even talks about how prayer should be private between you and god, not in front of others because you’re trying to show off your holyness or something.
    i think religion is such a private thing, going everywhere bragging and raving about it tarnishes it. religion should be between you, your god or lack thereof, and not random people in the street.

    and i don’t think he was talking about the “anti-Narnia” in popularity or classic, he was talking about symbolism-wise.

    and i know! i’ve heard interviews with authors that reveal them to be such complete idiots, i’m totally put off from reading thier books, even though my friends like them.

  38. Jacob says: Where would people have gotten the idea that the books were about killing God? Maybe it was when the author said: “My books are about killing God.”

    Yes, I agree that the rumors are based more on Googling Pullman than on reading the books. Because reading and thinking about what you’ve read is hard, and Googling and quoting out of context is easy.

    Alas, the emails that travel around don’t say, “The author has made provacative statements about killing god,” nor do they attempt to explain who or what the Authority might symbolize. The emails state flatly that “in the end the children kill god and everyone can do as they please.” That’s a lie, and the truth is more much complex than the rumor-spreaders want you to think. (IWhich suggests that the rumor-spreaders don’t want you to think much at all.)

    Then Jacob says: Also, I wouldn’t say that the Authority is not God because he’s a fraud. Pullman’s point is that God (i.e. the God of the Bible) is a fraud.

    The books distinguish between the Authority and the Creator. That’s a pretty big distinction. And, of course, the Magesterium doesn’t exist in our world, so now you’ve moved pretty far into the realm of literal interpretation by suggesting that there’s a one-to-one parallel between Lyra’s world and ours.

    So let me offer another, less literal interpretation: Pullman’s saying that the divine (symbolized in the books by dust) is much more subtle and complicated than human religions manage to capture. And, yes, that the idols we erect are quite often more about power and control than truth.

    Then Jacob says: But we shouldn’t pretend the books are something they’re not.

    Nowhere have I said the books don’t have an aetheist or agnostic message. But I’m not letting anyone forget that HDM is widely read by Christians as a source of inspiration—my theologian pals in Boston, the editors of Catholic Digest, and the Archbishop of Canterbury to name a few. It’s those ironies that shows how subtle and interesting the books are, and it’s subtleties like these that the emails exist to squash.

    Because, as Seraphina Zane suggests in comment 28, this isn’t an argument between Christians and aetheists, it’s an argument between people who can read on more than one level and people who can’t.

    Clearly, both these kinds of people exist in every faith. Both kinds also exist at every age level, which is the problem many of my readers have had with their parents.

    -scott

    P.S. Okay, this is also part of a bigger argument, between the people who feel righteous pulling books off library shelves and the people who think that’s the opposite of righteous. Which is not to suggest that eveyone who dislikes Pullman tries to ban him, merely to point out that there are old wounds on both sides.

  40. hey, scott, not like this has anything 2 do with this post, but it IS important. so i just found a post and decided to put it on it…

    in the back of specials, it says that there is a special ending (alternate ending) of specials. i found the last 1 or 2 chapters with ur commentary, and was about to ask if that was the alternate ending, but then i remembered that it says:
    “tally’s world could have ended differently…”

    …and u adding reasoning to wat u rote isnt exactly a different ending for tally, and besides, there is a picture that looks different from the one on the cover..

    …so0o0o0o, wheres the alternate ending????????

  43. Okay, so I’m not often a commenter on the blog (though I do read it constantly!) but I feel like I should weigh in on this.

    The comments around here (especially on the last post) seem to talk a lot about how religious kids might be influenced by these books to question their religion and possibly give it up.

    I’m an atheist, just to clear the air. But I have to say that if you’re a religious person who then abandons that religion because you read a book, then your faith in that religion probably wasn’t very strong to start off with. I’ve read all the HDM books at least twice, and I don’t think there’s anything in them encouraging kids to want to kill God. The books aren’t about destroying Christianity… in my opinion, they’re about the power and right of children to learn and choose on their own, and for people to stand up for what they believe instead of letting whoever is “in charge” make all their decisions for them.

  45. Ah, so you do read our comments Scott-la. And you have seen that this debate is a big deal to me and as you said, i will continue it. Yes, maybe they dont kill God but i still see a petetial misreading. But w/e. I can see you point ‘reading between the lines’ eh? Im not Canadian, just seemed to fit. Ok well, i am so very happy that you stopped posting about the debate,it makes me feel better that you try and make oit better. Your still my Fav. author Scott-la, no one can take your place.

  46. That was well put Kelly.
    I do agree with that. Quote “But I have to say that if you’re a religious person who then abandons that religion because you read a book, then your faith in that religion probably wasn’t very strong to start off with.” i agree.
    This is my point though. People also need to build there faith, but i love that point and i t is very true. If i read it and gave it up, i proubly didnt believe because i wanted but because i had to. Thank you for that observation.

  47. ohmygosh! im finally back! i swear! my stupid brain-missing !&*@^#$*@^!($ teachers are just trying to stock up the homework for the two weeks of vacation on top of what we already have! its KILLING ME! i have so much homework that i cant even avoid doing said homework on here! because theres so much of it that if i am on here for even one second i will fail all subjects for the rest of the quarter because of my behindedness! UUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGG!!! i am NOT HAPPY!!!!!!!
    😡 👿 😡 👿

    so sorry i just blew up there. im controlled now. but thats why i havent been on in the last week, and why i havent posted the rest of Graduation. or updated the face ranks. or posted anything. or even commented anything on any of my or anybody elses blog in the last week. but im back. until tomorrow when my teachers start stocking up again. UUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!

    but. i totally agree with Scott-la. even tho i still have not gotten the book from the library. im like hold number 200 or sompthin. i did hear these two guys (that ive never seen before in my life) arguing today at starbucks about the book. i listened. and when i realized which guy was actally explaining what happens in the actual book, almost exactly the same as Scott-la did, i went up to them and was like “oh yeah. this guy, hes totally rite. i shood no. i was there. i saw. yep.” and then left them open-mouthed and freaked. it was somewhat amusing.

    -Lizzy-wa OUT! 😀

  50. Ohhh, Scott, your really seem to be totally for this book. But I can understand why, they do rock, after all. Like I said before, just because I don’t like the author’s personal opinions about religion and such doesn’t mean I should rob myself of his amazing books.
    This argument kind of reminds of the Harry Potter thing where people say that it’s bad because it’s about witch craft. Obviously, the big diference is that His Dark Materials is a whole lot more pointedly conspiratory, but they’re both extremely lame arguments. You’ve got to be looking for something to find problems with in these cases.
    Reminds me, I’m doing a report for English about Banned Books and how rediculous the whole idea is. Actually, I used an example that I got from this Blog and scott posted! That book that was banned in all sorts of places because is had the word scrotum in it! What’s that all about?! Fine, I guess that means they should Ban out science books too, then. People should have to freedom to read whatever they want. It’s not fair to have a great book taken away from your reach by people who don’t think even remotely objectively about things! I want to make my OWN decision about what I read! I don’t want some biased loser deciding things for me!

  52. Banning books is certaninly bot rediculous. And they are not pointless everlasting arguments. there are resonabled thought out debates. Everything happens for a reason.

  54. ummm, i would go out on a limb to say banning books is ridiculous.
    you should be able to choose what you want to read or not read, and no one should have the athority to decide what is fit for the rest of the world’s consumption.

    and harry potter promoting witchcraft? i’d say that’s a pretty pointless everlasting argument. the magic in harry potter is nothing like real-life “witchcraft”, and the books have that never-ending message of tolerence and acceptance, which isn’t what i’d call objectionable.

  55. How is book banning not rediculous? I mean, I can see maybe not putting the bible and worship books in school libraries, but banning Hary Potter?! Banning His Dark Materials?! They’re amazing books that people need to have easy access to, and people that try to ban them just make me mad.
    And I think that arguments are pointless because, like Scott said, Lyra and Will don’t actually kill god! Just because a guy PRETENDING to be god did die, doesn’t mean he WAS god, and it doesn’t mean he was KILLED! And with Harry Potter… I honestly think that one is incredibly rediculous. It’s a fictional story about wizards and witches. Are they going to ban everybook about wizards and witches?

  56. Man, i read the post from yesterday. Do you guys like hate me? I saw at least 3 comments all pointing out how i offended you are you disagree with me.
    I dont care but it feels like you all want to STAB me. Really. Never had so many people hate me at once.
    And i may have offend you, but the post offened me so i had no choice but to deffend my religion. Its my job as a Catholic.

  57. i mean really, i think books that suck should be banned. but they aren’t. because not everyone agrees with me. i mean, i’d be, like, banning Eragon and Twilight and making Tithe required reading, which would definitly annoy a lot of people. say, the rabid twilight fans, and all those people who object to some of the crazier content in tithe.
    so if i decided what was okay for the rest of the world to agree, a lot of people would throw fits.
    what gives you or your people more athority or magical knowledge of right and wrong than me?

  59. and we don’t *hate* you, or at least i don’t.
    i just disagree with your opinions.
    i say again–book. banning. is. bad.
    usually because it’s over very stupid things (The Bermudez Triangle, anyone?) by people who haven’t read the books.
    see, there’s this thing in this country called free speech. it means people have a right to whatever they want to read, not just what self-righteous strangers think is okay for them to read.

  61. Ok, read all you want. But there are some things, likr the 9/11 movie, that should be banned. I think it wrong to make a movie about that. how sad. I feel bad for the people who have to remeber that.

  63. Exactly! If they’re going to give anyone athority over banning books at all, they should at least give it to people who are reasonable about it! The people currently choosing are just insane. They look frantically for anything that they can possibly somehow twist into being in whatever way inappropriate. And for the most part, the books aren’t doing anything wrong at all! Not to mention, from what I’ve noticed in my research, they only ban the good stuff! If there’s an amazing book (i.e. harry potter. his dark materials.) that they can find a problem in, they jump to ban it! But if there’s a terrible book that actually DOES have something wrong with it, they don’t try to ban it at all! I read this thing about a book that totally sucked, and no one tried to ban it even though it was basically about a bunch of people idolizing Hitler. I gotta ask, What’s up with that?!?!?!

  64. The Harry Potter witchcraft controversy is b/c JK Rowling researched real witchcraft and put it in the books. I think. idk if it’s true or not.

  65. Even if she did, that doesn’t mean the books are bad at all! If I were writing a fictional story about World War II and I did real research on Hitler and put it in my book, would that mean it has to be banned!?

  66. Bran-la said: Ok, read all you want. But there are some things, likr the 9/11 movie, that should be banned. I think it wrong to make a movie about that. how sad. I feel bad for the people who have to remeber that.
    I’m not trying to attack yoru views, since you can have them, but banning a movie on something that happened? That affected many people? I mean, it’s a movie! Not everyone was born then and they need to know what happened! 9/11 was horrible and traumatic and scary, but just because it is a bad memory does not mean that documentaries should not be made about it. They’re educational. Sheesh.
    After that I’ll just say that I am against banning books/movies/ etc. I think everyone has the right to write what they want and to read what they want — no one should try to take that right away. I mean, freedom of the press, people. Banning books is crazily against freedom of the press. Look it up.
    (Ah! Don’t hurt me for disagreeing with you!)

  67. Honestly, I find nothing wrong with the 9/11 movie either. I thought it was great that they made one. I mean, I had a cousin die in the 9/11 disaster, and the movie was actually good, maybe extremely sad, but I was extremely glad that they made one! It’s no worse than movies about WW II(What is with me today and world war II?!)! It may seem diferent if you didn’t live during WW II and you did during the terrorist attacks, but it’s really the same thing.

  68. Disney was an antisemite, but I still love his work (even though I myself am Jewish)

    I personally don’t like learning about the author of books. It makes it more a reality that the book’s setting is fiction rather than a real place you can go to. (Scott Westerfeld is an exception of course, because he is just plain awesome.)

  69. I think that if you are making a movie to aducate people that is good. But if you are making it just because people don’t want you to that is bad.

  70. Alli-wa said: I think that if you are making a movie to aducate people that is good. But if you are making it just because people don’t want you to that is bad.
    Yeah, that would be bad. But I don’t think people would spend all that money and time to make something that no one would want them to make. XP

  72. wow somehow I missed a bunch of comments when I read/skimmed over/re-read them.

    I agree w/ Serafina: Books should be banned if they suck. I would have a whole list of bad books that no one should ever read…

    hehe. I like lost of books, but I could write stuff way better than some stuff I read that would never get published.

    I don’t agree with book banning. I think people should be able to suggest people to read books, or suggest people not to read books, but they shouldn’t forcefully keep people from reading books. People can read or not read what they choose, and it’s not a big deal. So why are people making it a big deal?

    i heard that Pullman was a Catholic before becoming an Athiest. Is that true or a lie? I would check Wikipedia, but who knows if what I read there is ture or not, and besides, I reaaallllyyy have to go…

  73. I told my friend — who also likes Scott’s books – just not as much as me —

    I won’t read the Twilight books — not because she is a bad writer. I have no Idea how she writes, never read any of her material, It is because I find it hard after reading Peeps and Last Days, which I love, to read another vampire book that has TOTALLY different ideas. I honestly don’t know how people that read peeps can read Twilight and crap like that.

    It would ruin the whole essence of Peeps.

  74. hold on! Twilight is amazing and i don’t know if scotts is to but hers are great just give em a shot.Please.
    Second I am not allowed to READ the Golden Compass or any other of his books because of the reason of what ever it is i don’t understand. I am curious and have never ever been banned from reading anything befor.

  75. Third TWILIGHT and other”crap l;ike that are NOT CRAP!
    P.s.I plann on reading peeps very soon as soon as i get my hands on a copy:(

  77. im not reading the book because of the rumors, im not reading it because it doesnt loook like i would enjoy it. i dont really care. i will defend any good book (like my friend wont read harry potter because it supports witch craft) i told my friend that wont read harry potter, why do they celebrate christmas in the book?

  81. ok i know im not debateing and im the occasonial poster(hey this blog is #1 on my homepage tabs)but you have to tell me if they eat the heart after the bear fight in the movie YOU HAVE TO TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    think all you want of me but know iv accepted it allready

    and i love hdm its in my top 5 books and my dad got one of those emails and forwarded it to me and i was mad and he asked me if it changed my beliefs i said no but i do look at them differently

  82. I think it’s pretty cool to have both Scott and Justine respond to one of my posts, even if you disagree with me (though I still disagree with y’all).

    I haven’t actually received any emails but from the accounts I read in the media it seems like a lot of the opposition came from people talking about the books being about “killing God”.

    Okay, now it seems like you’re saying (correct me if I’m wrong) that in HDM Dust is the real God and the Authority is just some kind of gnostic demiurge. I think Pullman would probably disagree with that but as Justine noted that’s not the final word (Isaac Asimov once corrected a critic on what one of his stories meant to which the critic replied: “Dr. Asimov, just because you wrote it why do you possibly think you know what it’s about?”) Now there’s room to quibble about that interpretation– angels fighting against the Authority are probably not the most unbiased source for information about their enemy. Certainly Lord Asrie had no problem with lying and deceiving Lyra and others (“Hey Roger, close your eyes… I’ve got a cool knife trick I wanna try.”) But even conceeding the point, Pullman explicitly states in the books that this false god is the God worshipped as God by, among other entities, the Christian religions of at least two worlds.

    And while the Magisterium on this world doesn’t have souls-outside-the-body-as-animals it does exist, it’s the Catholic Church (Magisterium is a Catholic term). The other Magisterium also has other differences– Protestantism was co-opted before or/when John Calvin was made Pope (he moved the Papacy to Geneva where it gradually withered away).

    Again, I don’t think the books should be banned– I think they should be widely read (though if I could make one book more widely read it would have to be The Risen Empire). But even though some Christians like them, there are other Christians who are genuinely offended by them for the reasons listed above (Author talking about killing God, their God being protrayed as an evil usurper, their Church being shown as evil…). I don’t think the response should be to call them “nitwits” (as Pullman did) or otherwise malign them.

  83. Laura-la, if you really don’t read some books because they might contradict others then your going to miss out on a whole lot of really really amazing book! I’ve read PEEPS and TWILIGHT and I L-O-V-E them both, just because they conradict each other, it doesn really ruin any parts of them. Don’t rob yourself of amazing stories just because they diferenciate alot.

  84. Jacob!! I just now read your post, and I have one small thing to say about it. It’s kind of just off a foot note, but I had to say something. :]
    “though if I could make one book more widely read it would have to be The Risen Empire”
    I soooooooooo agree. I’m the only person I know whose read The Risen Empire and The Killing Of Worlds. I wish people would read them so that they could see how amazing they are!!!!!!!

  85. Ok, im thinking of not talking for awhile and just like not visiting this site.
    This is not helping my self confidence level.
    I no ‘i must be so Waco’ because i think some things are wrong and blah blah blah.
    I just seem to be put down. 🙁
    Time to hibernate since im some big bad beast now.

  86. Let me just get this out before i go ballistic.

    I will never ever ever read the Golden Compass and its followers.
    I hate Harry Potter (Bore me to death)
    The 9/11 movie is just to sad to be in theaters or store or w/e.
    I should not be hated so much on this blog for my opinions.
    And Scott-la should start backing me up!

  87. If you don’t here from me, refer to comment 85 for my reasonings. I have reasons and i also have an easily messed up self confidence level, as my friends broadly point out!

  88. Bran-la!! Just b/c some people don’t have the same opinion as you doesn’t mean they don’t like you!!!! I, for one, like you as a person, even if I don’t agree with you on some things. And I don’t even know you in real life!!

    You’re not “some big bad beast” as you put it. I just think alot of people here don’t agree with you on some things you say. But it’s okay to have your own opinion. But if I were you I would sorta hold it back for a better place…like church, maybe? Where more people might agree with you.

  89. Okay. So, Lyra and Will do not kill “god”. But Christians still have plenty to gripe about. In “His Dark Materials” we are portrayed as the bad guys. We torture and kill small children…? I mean, c’mon! An entire religion gets trashed in this series and for what? Because Susan goes to hell for wearing lipstick? I find the idea of a man writing an entire series in “response” to Lewis laughable. The sad thing is that Pullman is a brilliant writer. Why’d he have to go and alienate his audience? I’m disappointed in him.

  90. wow. I’m queen of redundancy…”I just think alot of people don’t agree with you on some things you say.” ok sorry I really didn’t need to point that out but when I do things like that it really bothers me.

    Now return your normal broadcast day.

  91. Ok so i wont leave. I’m to addicted anyway. I guess its ok to ‘be different’. I can be so pathetic sometimes. But thanks Allie-wa for you uplifting speech, your a good person to, even though i have no clue who you really are! 🙂

  92. Right now i am decorating the upstairs tree which has ornaments that are shaped like candy’s and stuff.!

  93. I’m going to have to agree (somewhat) with Bran-La…..I don’t think the movie should be banned. But I do find it morally reprihensible to capitalize off of the pain and suffering of those affected by September 11th. Documentaries=informational. Movies=$$$

  94. Lauren: Are you saying that you don’t agree with he series and that he is attacking a religion like Christianity? Jw.

  95. That is true i didn’t think of the money part. And even though its history, think of the people who watched it and had to cry all over again for there lost ones. Its sad.

  96. Me? good person? why, thank you!

    I’m glad I convinced you to stay. 🙂 I actually do like everyone here! I wouldn’t want anyone to leave. That would be sad-making.

  97. Ya you guys are all really cool. i have made new friends who i dont know except for there personality, which is the best kind, right?

  98. Lauren, I don’t think Pullman alientated his audience. I mean, if what he wants is to write about contraversial things, then he’s obviously aiming at a particular audience whose interested. Not to mention, lots and lots of christians do read those books all the time. The only people he alianted were the ones who were pointedly taking offense from it. I’m very religious, but I still adore the books. People can read things about beliefs diferent from theirs without faltering from they’re own. It’s not monkey see-monkey do. Also, it’s like capt. cockatiel said, how if you know your looking at something very influencial your much less likely to be influenced byit.

    And Bran-la, I’m really sorry if I lowered yourself confidence at all, I just disagreed with most of what you said. You seem like a cool person and all, I just don’t see things the same way as you, obviously. I’m pretty liberal. But about the 9/11 movie, sure, it’s extremely sad, but so are other things.
    Take it from someone who really knows; that movie helped alot with closure. People need to know what heppened that day.
    This is inspiring me to go on an anti-censorship rant, but I think I’ll refrain from it.

  99. I’m annoyed by his attacking christianity and basically any organized religion. It ruins a book when you read and realize to the author you are the bad guy.

  100. THANK YOU LAUREN!!! Someone who agrees with me!!! Oh, so happy-making. Sorry, i have just been waiting for someone to realize what i have. Love you all but…..
    WHOPEEEE!

  102. More opinions I have:

    Yep, lies are what it’s all about. To use another example that many people here might be familiar with, The Bermudez Triangle got banned in Oklahoma for, among other things, “unprotected sex,” and “reckless promiscuity.” When, in fact, no such things appeared in the book. Not anywhere. Not even close.

    This is what Pullman said in the article that Jacob quoted:
    “What I am against is organised religion of the sort which persecutes people who don’t believe. I’m against religious intolerance.”
    Maybe I missed it, but I don’t see him saying anything about undermining Christianity. And even if he did, he’s probably talking about the part of Christianity that’s trying to control other people. It’s happened before. Inquisition, anyone? But seriously. If I had to guess, I’d say that Philip Pullman doesn’t give a crap what anyone else believes, as long as they don’t use it as an excuse to mess with people.

    “Just because the author has a few problems doesn’t mean we should avoid his great book, right?!”
    Not that I think Pullman has problems, but yeah. One of my favorite authors, Orson Scott Card, has some beliefs that I definitely don’t agree with. But I still love his books.

    I just had a thought. Maybe Pullman’s books aren’t so much about undermining religion. They’re about healing it.

    And, as Scott said, HDM is also about a million other things. They’re the sort of books you can read over and over and each time find new things that you never noticed before.

    Book banning is BAD. No one can say that it’s okay to ban one book (or movie, etc.) b/c then someone else will say it’s okay to ban another book, and it just takes off from there. People have the right to read everything. You can check out Mein Kampf from the library, for crying out loud. I don’t hear anyone trying to ban that. And furthermore, I don’t think anyone should. Does that mean I agree with Hitler? Hell, no, thank you very much. Another example: I found it interesting, not too long ago, to page through the Book of Mormon. Am I Mormon? Do I believe what they believe? Not even close.

  105. This is my last post today. I promise. We’re reading A Christmas Carol in school and I want to say something:

    God bless everyone! Even those who don’t believe in God!

    Oh, and also, I think doing something controversial for good reasons is worth doing it. But doing something for the wrong reasons isn’t worth doing it.

    I wonder what people would be saying about HDM if no one had started the “killing God” email. Or if Pullman hadn’t said anything like “My books are about killing God”.

  106. Uhhh…yeah. Look, I am fully willing to admit Pullman is a master at crafting another world and developing characters and all that jazz. But writing about ‘controversial’ things detracts from the book. It destroys the symmetry of a novel and pulls the reader rather abruptly out of that state of suspended belief. If he wants to write about controversy why doesn’t he do it in an article with cold hard facts rather than mud-slinging techniques? Pullman took a bit of a cheap shot at religion in general.

  107. “um, you dont have to see it.”

    But why would anyone have to see the movie? It’s your choice whether to buy that ticket and walk into the theater. Just like it would be your choice to buy a book (of which I’m sure there are already many).

    Personally, I am not interested in seeing the movie. So I haven’t seen it. But other people might be. I’m more opposed to people making money off a tragedy so soon after it happened. But that’s my own personal belief.

  108. I think the 9/11 movie was amazing, and i lost someone in the tragedy. I think it wouldn’t have been as great if it were writen down. It’s amazing to be able to be told – and SHOWN – what happened that day. And it’s no diferent from movies about World War Two!

    Rebecca, “Maybe Pullman’s books aren’t so much about undermining religion”
    They are, for sure. Definately not in the ways some people have said, But Pullman has assured people many many times that his books are against christianity, and undermining it. He’s made that extremely clear in alot of diferent interviews.

  109. i hadn’t heard this rumor before. i’m so upset about this movie i haven’t seen (i know, i’m part of the problem) because the commercial spends so much time with people saying ‘compass’ and there isn’t even a compass in the book!

    that said, even though i agree that it’s ok for someone to have god killed in their book, it is important that if you rail against something, you don’t lie about it. unfortunatly, there are few mass railing against movements that don’t.

    i also think there needs to be a distinction made between something that is anti-god, and something that questions the authority of established religious order/power.

  110. Omg, were reading the Christmas Carol to! that is cool. Were almost done. Were on Stave 5. the Christmas Carol is boring. I usually read something else while the CD blabs away, not listening!

  111. “But writing about ‘controversial’ things detracts from the book.”

    People have to write about controversial things. That what everyone here is doing, right now, regardless of which side of the HDM debate we’re on. One of the greatest things about literature is that it can address controversies in new and unique ways, ways that have the potential to shed new light on a given issue. Take that away, and there’d be practically nothing left.

  112. it’s also interesting that there is so much discussion about the religious threads contained in hdm, and regarding the film, but not a lot of controversy has been generated about things like the portrayal of poc characters in the movie, which has very real ramifications in the real world, especially for actors of color.

  113. 1) duh. book banning = bad.
    sure, there’s a lot of crap out there, but i don’t trust ANYONE to filter it for me except me.

    2) are you saying that there shouldn’t be any press about 9/11 because it’s disrespectful? i’m sorry, but i think that’s not much of a reason. at what point is it okay? are you setting 9/11 apart from everthing else in history? are Pearl Harbor movies okay?
    i mean, it was tragic, and insensitivity in portraying things is bad, but that doesn’t mean you can’t talk about it.
    and define “the 9/11 movie”. Farenheit 9/11?

    3) i’m sorry you feel you’re being attacked for your beliefs, Bran-la. but we’re just trying to discuss things, and show our own personal beliefs. a lot of people don’t agree with you. sadly, we still have the right to our own, different opinions.

    4) see, i have to agree. organized religion has a way of getting crazy and out of hand. i’m not saying any of all of it currently is, but like any large community of people listening to leaders with incredible faith, it gets dangerous. blind following causes a lot of hurt.

    5) yes, Allie-wa, they celebrate christmas in Harry Potter. they’re all assumed to be marginally catholic, they give each other presents and get off school. the “witchcraft” is nothing like real (and i might add, harmless and benevolent, but that’s another argument) Wicca, and definitly not satan-worshipping. it’s like, we say magic word, things happen. poof. abracadabra. also, racism and intolerence are bad. come on, how do you object to that?

    okay, i’m gonna stop raving now. so many comments though…and real ones full of words too.

  114. “Rebecca, “Maybe Pullman’s books aren’t so much about undermining religion”
    They are, for sure. Definately not in the ways some people have said, But Pullman has assured people many many times that his books are against christianity, and undermining it. He’s made that extremely clear in alot of diferent interviews.”

    Can you back that up with an article or a direct quote? I’m sure I could find it myself if I searched long enough, but you have obviously already read that somewhere. So maybe you could point me to those interviews.

  115. “But writing about ‘controversial’ things detracts from the book.”

    UGLIES is about contraversial things.
    It’s about conforming with society, about everyone being exactly the same, and about the government tricking you in more ways than one.

    But it still rocks.

  116. okay, i lied. i just have to outrage once more.

    BUT WRITING ABOUT CONTRAVERSIAL THINGS DETRACTS FROM THE BOOK?

    ummm….no offense, but that is…well, very very stupid. not saying you are or anything, but. if no one writes about contraversy, you’re just ignoring it, which is suprememly unhealthy.
    if you don’t write about contraversy, what are you SUPPOSED to write about?
    oopps, gotta delete my novel about the underage alchoholic oracle and start writing about puppies and unicorns living in harmony.

  117. Well, yes, Uglies was about controversial things but at least one of the the themes of the book is that they’re bad.

    Unlike in HDM, where I’ve heard (not learned for myself, I haven’t read the books), Christianity is made to be bad. Religion as a whole is made to be bad.

    ok, THIS is my last post.

  118. Rebecca, I have two quotes right from Pullman. 1) from a 2003 interview, “My book are about killing god.” That’s kind of a duh factor. 2) 2001 interview, he said his book were “trying to undermine the basis of christian belief.”

  119. serafina zane – just a correction, i agree with your points. the harry potter folks are probably not catholic, for the most part. the church of england (i think it’s called episcopalian in the US) is a protestant denomination, and the church of scotland is as well. the republic of ireland is very catholic, but i think most of the hp characters aren’t irish. I presume you meant they were christian, but catholicism if a specific sort of christianity.

  121. We are writing in a forum where all sides have the opputunity to debate and defend. His books do not ‘address’ they condemn. It’s a smear campaign against organized religions. I am saying that IN THIS INSANCE writing about THIS controversy detracts rather than adds to literature. Pullman is too polarized to “address” the controversy of religion. There is a vast difference between explaining and attacking. Pullman crossed the line. I am not saying that people aren’t allowed to be agnostic. That would be ridiculous. You can’t force someone into belief (or disbelief). What I am saying is that I do not like the books because the way that Pullman handled the debate was like the literary equivalent of, “You’re stupid.” He does not like organized religion, so he attacks it. How is that shedding new light?

  122. I AM SAYING WRITING ABOUT CONTROVERSY IN A CHILDREN’S BOOK IS STUPID!!!!! Why is he writing all this stuff when his book was originally marketed to children who would not understand any of it?!

  123. Have you read the HDM books Lauren? Because, his books don’t attack anything, definately not religion. He certainly dones, but the book don’t.

  124. I would like to point out that when Scott writes about “controversial things” he does not attack a specific group. There is no one group that can clearly and unequivocably be named from that book.

  125. “I have two quotes right from Pullman. 1) from a 2003 interview, “My book are about killing god.” That’s kind of a duh factor. 2) 2001 interview, he said his book were “trying to undermine the basis of christian belief.””

    Thanks, but can you link them, please? I’d like to read the entire articles.

  126. Uh. Yeah. I have read them. Several times. Once on my own and once in a lit. class. So after dissecting it for several hours I can tell you that he does in fact attack religion. It’s kind of like reading Animal Farm but less obvious. Well, in some parts it’s less obvious.

  128. “I would like to point out that when Scott writes about “controversial things” he does not attack a specific group. There is no one group that can clearly and unequivocably be named from that book.”

    I would argue that the same is true for Pullman’s books. Just because he uses a lot of things that draw parallels with the Catholic Church or Christianity, it doesn’t mean that he is only attacking them, or that he’s attacking the entirety of their religion. Or that he’s attacking anything at all.

  131. say wat you’d like bran-la!
    i love it when people say what they want, it gives everyone a chance to be different. i havent read the golden compass books and i am no longer sure if i should…
    SAY WHAT YOU WANT PEEPS!!
    i am now reading the last days….bty.

  132. a book with overt christian themes is just as controversial as one with overt anti-religious themes. it’s just that everyone accepts that christianity will be in children’s books. because as a society we pretend that christianity is universal.

  134. Well, being for something can be far less offensive than beeing against something. If your writing about what you believe is prevoces people more than writing about what you think no one should believe. I see a big difference.

  135. Can I please mention that I have no problem with Pullman “furthering the athiest agenda” or whatever nonsense is being parroted. If there had not been such strong parallels with the catholic church and christianity (which may or may not be translated as attacks) I would have agreed with the whole “shedding light on an issue” theme. I agree with Pullman in the sense that there is a danger in organized religions to “group think”. Once you get that mentality all it takes is for one dynamic leader to turn an otherwise peaceful group of people into “bad guys”.

  137. ooooooooo, I was reading through the last chapter of specials with the commentary and was reminded of something.
    I know, it’s INCREDIBLY off topic and all, but I had to say something…

    Andrew Simpson Smith.
    I’m not sure if this was on purpose or by accident… but is it just me or are those some particularly unfotunate innitials?!

  144. okay, i’m replying to this before reading any farther.
    writing about contraversy in a children’s book is bad? really? what’s the age where children are fit to understand multiple sides of an issue? i know plenty of adults who never reach that. is writing about contraversy in YA okay?
    and i wouldn’t exactly call HDM “children’s”. i haven’t read them, but they’re of considerable length and complexity, and i’ve seen them firmly and consistently shelved in the older teen section.
    i can see your point about children being influenced, yes, i get that even if i don’t totally agree.
    i just remember getting really angry as a child when people talked down to me or avoided contraversial or complex topics—and i still do.
    issues of importance shouldn’t be avoided for children. i’m not saying we should scar toddlers for life, but i don’t think avoiding contraversial topics helped anyone grow up.

    oh, yeah, that was a typo thing about the harry potter—i meant christan not catholic.

  145. oh my goodnes.
    As much as I totally adore talking to you all, I’m sick and I need to sleep. So goodnight.
    :]

    <3

  146. Last post: Writing a book geared towards 7-12 year olds (which is what the book is listed as being approriate for) and putting in what can concievably be construed as anti-religious and has offended (rightly) a group does not teach children to look at both sides of the coin. He brought up a controversy and marketed it to children who are (for the majority) not equiped to think about it critically and form their own opinions. Sure, some kids can. But the majority of children are not critical thinkers at the age of nine.

  147. yes! i totally agree al.
    “it’s just that everyone accepts that christianity will be in children’s books. because as a society we pretend that christianity is universal.”
    i tend to shy away from books with christian religious themes becauase i often don’t like their messages or preachiness. some are good, and i liked Narnia, but i think they can get just as offensive.
    and i live in a very christian community—maybe 80%, though most aren’t very devout, and i’ve heard some very clueless statements, especially on the topics of other religions (completely ignoring the girl who asked if jewish people sacrificed animals. oh how i wanted to hit her, even not being Jewish). or seperation of church and state. because they don’t recognize there are religions other than their own. but that’s a different debate.

    “Well, being for something can be far less offensive than beeing against something.”
    ummm…no offense, but i think that’s very one-sided. but (and this doesn’t nesacarily apply in this exact context) what about the people on the other side? not everyone comes from the same place you do. maybe there’s a majority, but just because it’s the main opinion doesn’t mean you should go along with it (this said from a—not to start a political debate—fifth grader who got mocked for suggesting that the war in iraq was bad by people who now are all yeah man, i hate bush when it’s suddenly a popular opinion)
    the whole point of your beliefs is that they’re your beliefs.
    i don’t think that something being religious is less contraversial than it not being religious.

  148. i just have to point out (probably last post for me too, i need sleep. or writing) that very rarely do authors “market”. it’s often not thier descision which age group a book gets placed in, and it’s often not the one they were thinking of. so i very much doubt that Pullman got up one morning and said “i’m going to set out to corrupt the youths of america today.”
    and a lot of opinion of childhood is hindsight—i remember spending most of my time annoyed that people thought kids were stupid and parroted and copied everything they saw or heard older kids and adults doing.

  150. Savvy-la loves David and scott: thanks for the links. i’m going to look into this further when i don’t have massive FINALS OF DOOM coming up. 😛 😀

    been nice debating with y’all. ‘night. 🙂

  151. When The Amber Spyglass was first published, my younger brother and I got into a fistfight over who would get to read it first.

    Just thought I’d share that.

  152. oh my, there are a LOT of comments here. I got to comment 62, then my eye balls fell out. (made my keyboard all gross!)
    i just wanted to point out a few things,
    Savvy-la loves David:
    I too am writing a research paper on censorship of books for one of my college classes. I just wanted to point out that there’s a difference between censorship of YA books and adult books. Meaning, that books banned for adults and books banned for minors. As a minor, rights like freedom of speech are different (in my understanding of the law) because minors are under their parents rules. i.e. a minor does not have the right to everything if their parents don’t allow it. And the reason I think that it’s important to differentiate these ideas, is that banning a book for everyone in a city, state, or country is one thing ( a bad thing, I should think) but banning in a high school is another, because it can interefere in a parents right to monitor what their children read (not that i think minors should be denied these books, so don’t flame me!).
    So my point, when discussing banning or censoring, it’s important to distinguish in where these books are being banned or censored.

    btw… i like HDM, but the movie… eh… it just felt like one long introduction for me…

  154. 1. love love love HDM.
    2. love love love this post
    3. I am so happy that you pointed out that the Authority is NOT GOD. See this teenage angst? This isn’t the product of livejournal or rap music(mostly because anyone who listens to rap deserves the angst). This angst is because people evidentally do not read.

    Also, you may not say it, but I will. YOU MUST ALL GO READ PULLMAN NOW.
    NO, REALLY: NOW.

    affection
    -kits

  155. I just wanted to say that my whole theme for my english class this year is challenging the sysytem and both HDM and Uglies have come up a lot. In class we noticed that often people focus so much on parts of the book and other things get completely ignored. In HDM the only reason that religion is so heavily discussed is because it is so controversial. The banning of books was also discussed in my class and I feel that banning a book is like banning ideas. I think that everyone should be intitled to their ideas.
    Any way i’ll say it to GREAT POST SCOTT

  156. This is why i gave up wanting to be a judge, so. many. thoughts. my brain is trying to figure out all the points of view and ts hard to tell who’s on what side since most seem to go back and forth.

  159. Serafina Zane, When I said the people take less offense in things being for one thing than against another is this;
    Some people are offended my HDM books because they think Pullman’s undermining christianty or in some other way insulting it, right? My point isn’t that people would be less insulted if he were for christiantity instead of against it, my point is that less people would be insulted if he were for atheism instead of against christianty.
    And Bran-la, I see what you mean; the back and forth thing. I feel like maybe I’m one of the people whose been seeming to go back and forth, so let me clear it up…
    I try to be as objective as I possibly can(which might seem back-and-forthy). I love the books, and don’t see anything wrong with them at all; I don’t think anyone at all should be kept from reading them. But I do not like Pullman as a person. It’s not that I don’t like what he belives – or rather, what he doesn’t – it’s that he out right critisizes christianty. I understand that the internet can’t be trusted for the most part, and that almost every aricle I read is going to be biased and portray him in a way that he didn’t mean to be portrayed, but I’ve never met the man and I don’t think I ever will, so for now the internet is all I can really use unless someone has a better way for me to get more accurate information.
    But, even while I do try and stay objective, when I’m talking about the books – not the author – I tend to get defensive since I love them so much.

  161. Omg, i loved this series, The Golden Compass!! it was awsome!!!!!!!!!! the movie was ‘bleh’. but the books = amazinnggg

  162. On a related Pullman/HDM note:
    So my grandmother had gotten one of those emails warning people about the books and movie and she sent it to my dad and he freaked out and was all, “You can not see this movie!”
    Oh, I was not going to stand for that. So I convinced my dad to let me see it (which I have yet to actually do, but I really want to see it), but I decided that my grandmother needed to be informed that god isn’t “killed” in the books. So I wrote her this huge email and linked to this post (thank you, Scott!) and sent it to her.
    Today I got her reply and she thanked me for explaining and she sent it to her pastor!
    Not to offend anyone against the books, but: SUCCESS!

  163. really? wow that’s very interesting…you could have started a new chain email!! Not that starting chain emails is always good but if they are enlightening they are.

    I, for one, hate chain emails. I ALWAYS NO MATTER WHAT delete them.

  164. Serafina Zane- thanks ur name is awsome 2.

    I finised GC and saw the movie in the same day.I love them both! I totally agree with everyone who says that people should be able to read and see whateva they want. My parents are pretty good about it but I have friends who’s parents freak. Again I just think that they are ideas and that they are important to life and should not be stoped because people get offended.

  167. I would freak out if I met someone with the name of one of my characters. >.>
    Like there is this cafe downtown where I live and it has the name of one of my characters. It’s really strange…

  168. I’ve met people with names the same as characters I create. I’ve also met a Zane, Cal, Lace, Pearl, Minerva, Shay, Hunter(but there are lots of Hunters), and a Laurent, like from The Risen Empire. They all make me happy :]

  169. If I met someone named Corbin I would begin to ask them silly questions that only pertain to my character. Then I’d have to hope I never run into them again…
    Uh… yeah. >.>

  170. I don’t claim to support book banning. I don’t.

    That said, even if the person they (accidentally) killed wasn’t the Creator, he was still, in that very excerpt, referred to as “the ancient of days.” That is a biblical name for the Christian God. I believe that even good religion can go bad (the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc.), and that is one point that Pullman seems to be trying to get across. Using references like “the ancient of days,” however, makes his, “let’s be cautious about religion,” message into a bit of an attack on a particular belief system. I can’t condone that.

    I’ll read what I like, with little regard to what the AFA says, but I find this particular bit of literature personally insulting. Feel free to disagree. If I don’t allow you to disagree, then I am no better than those who participated in the Inquisition.

  171. I don’t really have much to add here, except to say that I’m a member of a Philip Pullman/HDM forum filled with fans as obsessive of his books as you all are of Scott’s books. I wanted to say a couple of things.

    First, it is absolutely heart warming to see another author come out and defend Pullman clearly and in public. A lot of the attacks against Pullman seem to be from people who have not read the books, and instead have read a chain email, usually with the line about ‘killing God.’

    It’s also fantastic to see everyone debating the issue with respect for each others’ opinions and ideas – probably no-one will end up changing each others’ mind, but at least it exposes everyone to lots of different ideas and beliefs.

    I just thought I should clarify a few things. Firstly, a couple of people have the idea that the books are marketed at a 7-12 year old audience. This is not correct (at least not in Australia, where I am from). They are generally shelved in the ‘young-adult’ section of bookshops. I read the first one when I was 12, and I think that’s about the youngest you should read them. Not because of their ideas, specifically, but because of the writing, which, while not difficult to understand, does use big words and requires a good vocabulary to understand.

    The next point I’d make is that children, generally, only read things that interest them. And if they don’t understand something, they often give up on it or it just goes over their heads. When I was a child, I had no idea that the Narnia books were Christian allegories. I just thought ‘oh, they killed the lion, that’s bad, hang on, he’s alive again, cool.’ It was only when I was much older that I understood the symbolism, and I suspect it will be the same with HDM. When children are old enough to understand Pullman’s message, they’re also old enough to decide whether to accept or reject it.

    The final thing I’d like to say (and I say it with great respect) is that book burning and censorship is never the answer. If you want to avoid a particular book or movie, that’s fine, but I don’t believe anyone has the right to deprive other people from reading or watching stuff. If you feel your faith will be destroyed by reading something that opposes it, your faith can’t really be that strong, can it? Faith and religion shouldn’t be easy, they should be difficult, they should be something that is thought about, struggled with and firmly believed in.

    Thanks for putting up with my long post, and I think it’s important that you debate these ideas, because it exposes everyone to different opinions, which can only be a good thing, right?

  173. I know but… its wrong to kill god but the books are wondertfull so i just go with the freakin books so… and i only put up with the first 3 paragraphs

  174. Hey Scott, Of course I agree with you that Pullman does not “kill God” — because the figure the Authority puts up as God is only an old man. But Pullman himself in a 2003 interview made the line famous: “My books are about killing God.” He’s only recently toned down this rhetoric — so it’s easy to see the confusion. In Pullman’s world God is an artificial construct — a thing used to maintain power and authority. Pullman does not believe in God so he sees institutions such as the Magisterium as promulgating a lie for the purpose of maintaining power. Killing God for Pullman is more about killing a repressive idea rather than a Creator.

    I am a Catholic and will say that I wince at Pullman’s misuse of the Magisterium and in general his didactic tone (especially in the last book.) But I am also fascinated by Pullman’s elaborate efforts to deny religious faith — it’s like watching a man wrestle with angels.

  175. Something I’d like to add, and I don’t mean to offend anyone by it if I accidentally do somehow…
    But even if it wasn’t a lie, and he did kill god in his books, JUST READ THE BOOKS AND ENJOY IT, PEOPLE! I mean, you don’t have to over analyze things at all, and if your old enough to understand that book at all then your old enough not to get influenced that much by it! I mean, sure I’d find it a bad sentiment, but it’s not like a bunch of people are going to read the books and then decide to change all of their beleifs because a man they probably haven’t actually met has decided to kill god in his fictional books! Just read the amazing books and enjoy them like your suppose to! The books take you into this amazing and wonderful new world, and if you over analyze everything then your not only going to ruin the experience of the amazing world he’s created, your also not getting what you could from the whole story! And, if you start broadcasting it everywhere then your likely to ruin other peoples chances to enjoy the books also!
    So can’t we just enjoy great literature?!

  176. Something to add to that;
    Some people are saying, maybe it doesn’t SEEM like he’s being anti-religious, but that’s what he meant by it! He meant to undermine religion, he ment to kill god, blah,blah,blah.
    Who cares what he meant?! And, would you know that’s what he meant by it if it weren’t for this rediculous contraversy and all those e-mails?! No, I don’t think you would. If this so-called-problem hadn’t been broadcasted into most everyone’s e-mail, then half the people who strongly dislike the series now could very possibly love them! It doesn’t matter what he meant by it, it matters what you got from it! So if it really boters you what he meant by it, then here’s an idea; STOP LOOKING IT UP! Google is great and all, but if you’re going to use it to worsen your opinions on amazing books, then break the google addiction and go get a mind of your own! Just because Pullman gets something out of his books doesn’t mean you have to get the same thing!!

  177. A charcter in one of my books was named Shan. Not shaun. Shan. And Lea (Lee – UH, thank you very much.). And now it turns out boths names are real.

    Yeah I don’t think the HDM books are marketed to children…I tried to read
    lord of the rings when i was 10 and well i finished them but i didn’t understand them at all. at some parts i would read the words but be thinking about something ttly different. this was for like whole chapters at a time. I still don’t know what they are about…there are huge gaps where I zoned out.

    And even reading A Christmas Carol this year was incredibly boring. So, yeah, kids will read what interests them. And give up on anything they aren’t interested in.

  178. omg Savvy-la loves David that is EXACTLY what I think! I totally agree w/ you when you say “…would you know that’s what he meant by it if it weren’t for this rediculous contraversy and all those e-mails?! No, I don’t think you would.”

    I mean, I agree w/ that 100%.

  180. Yay, I’m glad you agree. I’m also glad my stupid comments returned from whatever purgatory they had been sent to. They disappeared for like 5 hours, and now they have returned :]
    But yeah, the fact that people are broadcasting this stuff is just ruining the books for people who would otherwise love them.

  181. Serifina Zane- HA that is so cool!

    I totally agree that those posts r ruining the books for people. People should get to make their own decision

  182. But not only are some people not aloud to make their own decision because of those e-mails, but some people are subcontiously choosing not to! They woon’t quit look up Pullman quotes that just mess up everyone’s take an great books!
    Oh, how frustrating.

  184. What did the comments do to be sent to such a terrible fate?!?! I hope Lucifer was nice to them. THEY WERE SO YOUNG! Poor little blurbs of text T_T

  186. Yeah… Like when people try to ban books without reading them!! *cough-HISDARKAMATERIALS-cough*

    Those books should not be banned, because they ARE NOT about killing god. They’re not about god, and they’re not about killing! Ha! So There! If there not about either of those things, then they certainly can’t be about both put together!! :[

  187. does pullman actually say the magisterium is a christian organization? i haven’t read the books in a while (i just started rereading the golden compass so i could see the movie, but i’m thinking i won’t see the movie because it looks bad) and i am entirely insensitive to people speaking bad about the church (i am wary of speaking ill of people for their faith, but i have no problem with people speaking out against power. i’m an anarchist too!). but while i certainly thought of the church powers in the books as christian, i can’t remember if they actually were. by that i mean, if you didn’t know that christianity was so prevalent in england, could it be read as any group gaining too much power?

  188. I think that people just kind of decided that it was christianty because of their beliefs and because of Pullman and the stuff he says about it

  189. Umm…I’m not even gonna start saying how much I hate politics.

    And how…silly…anarchists are.

    Sorry, I’ve just had bad experiences with anarchists in the past.

  190. hhmmm… Kinky Freedman was kind of an anarchist!
    For those who don’t know, Kinky was a dude running for Texas Governor.
    He was amazing! And very pink.

  191. thank yOu scOtt!!! people have been driving me crazy trying to tell me that they “kill God” in the books. i’ve actually read all 3 of the HDM books, and they’re fawesome!!! totally reccomend them to everyone!!!

  192. well i agree, i have read the 1st two books and i was happy when i read that the movie was coming out and now theres all this crap in the papers telling you not to see it ( i live in a small town and everyone celebrates christianty(including me)) but i think that its just another book! people should just give it a rest! see the movie if you want or dont see the movie if you want! just because im going to see the movie and i have read the books dose not mean i agree with the pullman. but his books rock my sox!

  193. al: Pullman’s specific use of the word Magisterium is revealing as it is not a neutral word at all– nor invented. It comes with its own history, refering to the 2,000 year old tradition of the Catholic teaching authority. No other religion has such a term, nor is used in secular contexts. So while Pullman creates another type of authority altogether in the novel under the title of the “Magisterium” — given his stated agenda with the novels, it’s hard not to imagine that as an author, he used that word to carry a certain ironic weight.

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